1
00:00:06,889 --> 00:00:04,130
Secrets cover-ups and strange phenomena

2
00:00:09,890 --> 00:00:06,899
UFOs and ideas that challenge reality

3
00:00:11,509 --> 00:00:09,900
itself all these Mysteries all this time

4
00:00:14,089 --> 00:00:11,519
are we ever going to get to the bottom

5
00:00:16,609 --> 00:00:14,099
of these my name is George Knapp I dig

6
00:00:18,950 --> 00:00:16,619
into news stories that others can't or

7
00:00:20,630 --> 00:00:18,960
won't I'm Jeremy Corbell and for some

8
00:00:22,670 --> 00:00:20,640
reason people tell me things they

9
00:00:24,910 --> 00:00:22,680
probably shouldn't

10
00:00:28,370 --> 00:00:24,920
and this is weapons

11
00:00:32,269 --> 00:00:28,380
[Music]

12
00:00:34,069 --> 00:00:32,279
this is round two Dr Colin Kellerman

13
00:00:36,170 --> 00:00:34,079
this is weaponized we have a special

14
00:00:38,750 --> 00:00:36,180
guest a long time friend of ours Dr

15
00:00:41,389 --> 00:00:38,760
Colin Kelleher an eminent scientist and

16
00:00:43,430 --> 00:00:41,399
investigator and we got a lot of ground

17
00:00:45,470 --> 00:00:43,440
to cover one of the reasons why I'm

18
00:00:48,049 --> 00:00:45,480
stoked you're talking with us like

19
00:00:50,569 --> 00:00:48,059
openly here like this man I've heard you

20
00:00:54,250 --> 00:00:50,579
guys talk I know what's going on to a

21
00:00:57,369 --> 00:00:54,260
high degree is that you ran like you ran

22
00:01:01,670 --> 00:00:57,379
the largest acknowledged

23
00:01:04,130 --> 00:01:01,680
UFO program in the history of our

24
00:01:07,010 --> 00:01:04,140
military that's acknowledged and and

25
00:01:09,950 --> 00:01:07,020
that was called OSAP hired through the

26
00:01:11,870 --> 00:01:09,960
DIA contract but you were the principal

27
00:01:13,910 --> 00:01:11,880
who ran the day-to-day the

28
00:01:18,230 --> 00:01:13,920
investigations is that correct you

29
00:01:20,630 --> 00:01:18,240
overshaw it all well the allsop was the

30
00:01:22,630 --> 00:01:20,640
acronym for the advanced Aerospace

31
00:01:26,570 --> 00:01:22,640
Weapons Systems application program

32
00:01:30,770 --> 00:01:26,580
which was a 20 24 that morphed into

33
00:01:34,130 --> 00:01:30,780
27-month program run through Dia funded

34
00:01:37,190 --> 00:01:34,140
uh with 22 million dollars uh Robert

35
00:01:40,490 --> 00:01:37,200
Bigelow formed an organization called

36
00:01:43,249 --> 00:01:40,500
bass to execute the OSAP contract I was

37
00:01:45,469 --> 00:01:43,259
the program manager for the OSAP

38
00:01:48,050 --> 00:01:45,479
contract in Las Vegas I had a

39
00:01:51,530 --> 00:01:48,060
counterpart on the East Coast a guy

40
00:01:53,830 --> 00:01:51,540
called Dr James lacatski who was a

41
00:01:56,990 --> 00:01:53,840
ballistic or is a ballistic missile

42
00:02:00,830 --> 00:01:57,000
physicist and engineer so he was running

43
00:02:04,130 --> 00:02:00,840
thing things from the east coast and I

44
00:02:08,270 --> 00:02:04,140
was the coordinator project manager uh

45
00:02:09,190 --> 00:02:08,280
in Las Vegas we hired about 50 different

46
00:02:13,790 --> 00:02:09,200
people

47
00:02:16,010 --> 00:02:13,800
within a space of uh seven months of

48
00:02:20,210 --> 00:02:16,020
activating the allsop contract which was

49
00:02:22,490 --> 00:02:20,220
activated in September of 2008 so you

50
00:02:26,330 --> 00:02:22,500
know that the idea was we were hustling

51
00:02:29,390 --> 00:02:26,340
to get to start hire people with

52
00:02:32,750 --> 00:02:29,400
security clearances if possible we hired

53
00:02:35,630 --> 00:02:32,760
PhD and master's degree engine of

54
00:02:37,869 --> 00:02:35,640
scientists we hired Engineers we hired

55
00:02:39,890 --> 00:02:37,879
database analysts

56
00:02:41,410 --> 00:02:39,900
counterintelligence people security

57
00:02:43,869 --> 00:02:41,420
officers

58
00:02:46,970 --> 00:02:43,879
translators to translate documents So

59
00:02:50,390 --> 00:02:46,980
within seven months of starting this

60
00:02:51,770 --> 00:02:50,400
program it started in uh in September of

61
00:02:55,369 --> 00:02:51,780
2008

62
00:02:57,650 --> 00:02:55,379
uh within seven months we had a team of

63
00:03:00,229 --> 00:02:57,660
50 full-time people these people were

64
00:03:03,589 --> 00:03:00,239
not doing this part-time on their spare

65
00:03:07,610 --> 00:03:03,599
time these were were tasks 40 hours a

66
00:03:12,290 --> 00:03:07,620
week plus uh to execute the OSAP program

67
00:03:15,410 --> 00:03:12,300
the OSAP program it's only remit was to

68
00:03:18,110 --> 00:03:15,420
investigate uh UFO activity and

69
00:03:19,729 --> 00:03:18,120
specifically to assess whether or not uh

70
00:03:21,710 --> 00:03:19,739
there was a threat associated with the

71
00:03:23,630 --> 00:03:21,720
UFO right so I want to take I want you

72
00:03:25,790 --> 00:03:23,640
you to take us there because this is how

73
00:03:27,830 --> 00:03:25,800
I understand I want to see how you go

74
00:03:29,330 --> 00:03:27,840
from you know nids at that point

75
00:03:31,550 --> 00:03:29,340
National Institute for Discovery Science

76
00:03:35,869 --> 00:03:31,560
and you're working on all this to like

77
00:03:37,850 --> 00:03:35,879
an official Dia request to study UFOs

78
00:03:40,309 --> 00:03:37,860
building out this whole thing I

79
00:03:43,130 --> 00:03:40,319
understand that Dr lakotsky was from the

80
00:03:45,589 --> 00:03:43,140
DIA and he's your counterpart there and

81
00:03:47,630 --> 00:03:45,599
then you're running the show here with

82
00:03:50,149 --> 00:03:47,640
the under the contract you're the head

83
00:03:52,250 --> 00:03:50,159
guy and and now we you can talk about

84
00:03:54,350 --> 00:03:52,260
all of this which is interesting so so

85
00:03:55,970 --> 00:03:54,360
George can you set us up to where he

86
00:03:57,770 --> 00:03:55,980
goes from well there's a big chunk of

87
00:04:01,430 --> 00:03:57,780
the story we're missing so we went from

88
00:04:03,850 --> 00:04:01,440
nid's 96 and Bigelow buying Skinwalker

89
00:04:06,890 --> 00:04:03,860
Ranch to the creation of OSAP in between

90
00:04:08,990 --> 00:04:06,900
there was this long study by the nid's

91
00:04:11,589 --> 00:04:09,000
team at the ranch they set up shop there

92
00:04:14,690 --> 00:04:11,599
they they had a command center they put

93
00:04:16,789 --> 00:04:14,700
cameras all over the ranch and it was

94
00:04:18,890 --> 00:04:16,799
primarily interested in the high level

95
00:04:20,629 --> 00:04:18,900
of UFO activity that had been reported

96
00:04:22,370 --> 00:04:20,639
there but a lot of other stuff too

97
00:04:24,890 --> 00:04:22,380
animal mutilations that have been

98
00:04:26,870 --> 00:04:24,900
happening and and as you were later to

99
00:04:28,610 --> 00:04:26,880
learn a lot of other weird things that

100
00:04:30,110 --> 00:04:28,620
wasn't why you were there but that's

101
00:04:32,210 --> 00:04:30,120
what you learned about it right right

102
00:04:36,170 --> 00:04:32,220
yeah I think that's a that's a pretty

103
00:04:38,270 --> 00:04:36,180
good summary and as you also mentioned

104
00:04:40,310 --> 00:04:38,280
um you and I wrote a book at the very

105
00:04:43,550 --> 00:04:40,320
end of that whole procedure that came

106
00:04:45,590 --> 00:04:43,560
out in 2004 2005.

107
00:04:48,830 --> 00:04:45,600
um and the purpose for for writing that

108
00:04:50,510 --> 00:04:48,840
book was to see what other ranches were

109
00:04:52,909 --> 00:04:50,520
around the country and around the world

110
00:04:55,249 --> 00:04:52,919
what are the UFO all hot spots might

111
00:04:58,909 --> 00:04:55,259
exist and we actually have had a lot of

112
00:05:01,850 --> 00:04:58,919
feedback that book came out what 2005

113
00:05:04,730 --> 00:05:01,860
which is what I don't know 17 going on

114
00:05:06,050 --> 00:05:04,740
18 years we're showing our age here but

115
00:05:09,070 --> 00:05:06,060
but you know the really interesting

116
00:05:12,710 --> 00:05:09,080
thing was that when this book came out

117
00:05:14,270 --> 00:05:12,720
it attracted the attention of people on

118
00:05:18,170 --> 00:05:14,280
the East Coast

119
00:05:19,909 --> 00:05:18,180
um we we know that Jim lakatsky who was

120
00:05:22,430 --> 00:05:19,919
a ballistic missile physicist working

121
00:05:24,409 --> 00:05:22,440
for the defense intelligence agency and

122
00:05:26,830 --> 00:05:24,419
the other guy we call in the book

123
00:05:29,570 --> 00:05:26,840
Axelrod who was also at the time

124
00:05:33,170 --> 00:05:29,580
seconded to defense intelligence agency

125
00:05:38,990 --> 00:05:33,180
both of those guys read hunt for the

126
00:05:43,909 --> 00:05:41,330
um which was a stroke of Genius on his

127
00:05:46,370 --> 00:05:43,919
part and obviously he had permission

128
00:05:48,710 --> 00:05:46,380
from the defense intelligence agency he

129
00:05:51,590 --> 00:05:48,720
writes a letter to Robert Bigelow saying

130
00:05:55,430 --> 00:05:51,600
you know that as an official defense

131
00:05:57,890 --> 00:05:55,440
intelligence agency uh matter

132
00:06:01,909 --> 00:05:57,900
um he would like to visit the Skinwalker

133
00:06:03,890 --> 00:06:01,919
Ranch and so in July of 2007 uh Robert

134
00:06:05,689 --> 00:06:03,900
Bigelow immediately agreed after

135
00:06:08,390 --> 00:06:05,699
checking out that this was a real deal

136
00:06:10,189 --> 00:06:08,400
this was not some guy sort of uh

137
00:06:14,749 --> 00:06:10,199
masquerading as a defense intelligence

138
00:06:16,909 --> 00:06:14,759
agency guy he was real and so lakotsky

139
00:06:21,830 --> 00:06:16,919
and Bigelow arrived on the ranch in in

140
00:06:24,170 --> 00:06:21,840
July of 2007 and they were talking with

141
00:06:27,050 --> 00:06:24,180
the ranch manager and his wife in their

142
00:06:30,050 --> 00:06:27,060
small little what we call Homestead one

143
00:06:31,730 --> 00:06:30,060
on the house on the ranch which is a

144
00:06:34,490 --> 00:06:31,740
small Homestead that is very close to

145
00:06:37,189 --> 00:06:34,500
the entrance of the ranch uh Bigelow was

146
00:06:38,809 --> 00:06:37,199
talking to the the two uh the two Ranch

147
00:06:40,430 --> 00:06:38,819
people

148
00:06:43,309 --> 00:06:40,440
um and lakowski is standing in the

149
00:06:46,730 --> 00:06:43,319
kitchen behind Bigelow and the ranch

150
00:06:50,450 --> 00:06:46,740
manager and his wife this

151
00:06:53,090 --> 00:06:50,460
um metallic looking uh Twisted object

152
00:06:55,309 --> 00:06:53,100
suddenly appears in the kitchen right in

153
00:06:58,550 --> 00:06:55,319
front of lakaski and it's shrouded in

154
00:07:01,670 --> 00:06:58,560
this yellowish mist and you know it's a

155
00:07:04,909 --> 00:07:01,680
sort of curved cylindrical metallic

156
00:07:07,309 --> 00:07:04,919
looking object but it appears out of

157
00:07:10,850 --> 00:07:07,319
nowhere in thin air in the kitchen and

158
00:07:12,770 --> 00:07:10,860
the katsuki is sort of a physicist an

159
00:07:15,110 --> 00:07:12,780
engineer and he's looking at this

160
00:07:16,670 --> 00:07:15,120
Apparition wondering what the hell is

161
00:07:18,469 --> 00:07:16,680
going on

162
00:07:21,650 --> 00:07:18,479
he looks away

163
00:07:24,290 --> 00:07:21,660
looks back still there so it's not sort

164
00:07:26,990 --> 00:07:24,300
of a trick of his eyes or whatever and

165
00:07:29,930 --> 00:07:27,000
then it starts dissolving it basically

166
00:07:31,249 --> 00:07:29,940
vanished in front of his eyes but he

167
00:07:34,969 --> 00:07:31,259
didn't say anything I mean he was

168
00:07:38,210 --> 00:07:34,979
absolutely in shock because this was

169
00:07:41,029 --> 00:07:38,220
for his eyes only neither Robert Bigelow

170
00:07:43,790 --> 00:07:41,039
or the two Ranch managers had seen this

171
00:07:45,950 --> 00:07:43,800
because it was right behind them and

172
00:07:49,790 --> 00:07:45,960
lakaski didn't say anything he was

173
00:07:52,790 --> 00:07:49,800
silent on the way back to the uh you

174
00:07:56,150 --> 00:07:52,800
know to the airport and then he went

175
00:07:58,070 --> 00:07:56,160
back to the east coast and but that

176
00:08:00,890 --> 00:07:58,080
single event changed I mean it was a

177
00:08:02,570 --> 00:08:00,900
game changer for lakaski and out of that

178
00:08:07,550 --> 00:08:02,580
event

179
00:08:10,730 --> 00:08:07,560
Bigelow and between Robert Bigelow and

180
00:08:12,710 --> 00:08:10,740
lakowski and Senator Reid which you know

181
00:08:14,809 --> 00:08:12,720
George can talk about

182
00:08:18,830 --> 00:08:14,819
um you know they they essentially got

183
00:08:22,369 --> 00:08:18,840
this incredibly Innovative program to

184
00:08:24,830 --> 00:08:22,379
study UFOs funded through the defense

185
00:08:27,550 --> 00:08:24,840
Intelligence Agency of an official

186
00:08:30,710 --> 00:08:27,560
program that began in September of

187
00:08:33,529 --> 00:08:30,720
2008 but you know the Genesis of this

188
00:08:36,829 --> 00:08:33,539
this would not have happened if lakaski

189
00:08:38,870 --> 00:08:36,839
and Axelrod because I Axelrod was very

190
00:08:41,209 --> 00:08:38,880
much a part of sort of setting up the

191
00:08:44,089 --> 00:08:41,219
operations for the original uh the

192
00:08:45,530 --> 00:08:44,099
original program if they had not read

193
00:08:48,410 --> 00:08:45,540
that book

194
00:08:50,329 --> 00:08:48,420
I'm pretty damn sure that this program

195
00:08:53,030 --> 00:08:50,339
would never exist yeah you guys are

196
00:08:54,769 --> 00:08:53,040
saying Axelrod eventually people are

197
00:08:57,170 --> 00:08:54,779
going to understand that that's a person

198
00:08:58,490 --> 00:08:57,180
so you're quoting a name that's in your

199
00:08:59,930 --> 00:08:58,500
book because you have promised to keep

200
00:09:01,370 --> 00:08:59,940
people's identities if those people

201
00:09:03,710 --> 00:09:01,380
decide to come forward about their

202
00:09:07,070 --> 00:09:03,720
identities that's on them well it'll

203
00:09:08,449 --> 00:09:07,080
it'll happen yeah we're we're skipping

204
00:09:10,990 --> 00:09:08,459
part of the story of course a big

205
00:09:13,790 --> 00:09:11,000
gigantic chunk is what happens between

206
00:09:15,410 --> 00:09:13,800
1996 and when the book gets published

207
00:09:17,690 --> 00:09:15,420
and that is there are hundreds of

208
00:09:20,210 --> 00:09:17,700
incidents you know I've seen uh the

209
00:09:22,250 --> 00:09:20,220
experts the uh social media experts and

210
00:09:24,170 --> 00:09:22,260
debunkers who now say nothing ever

211
00:09:26,750 --> 00:09:24,180
happened on that property until Bigelow

212
00:09:29,269 --> 00:09:26,760
arrived it's all made up the Rancher the

213
00:09:30,829 --> 00:09:29,279
Gorman family uh they weren't contacted

214
00:09:33,170 --> 00:09:30,839
at the book They're not supporting it

215
00:09:34,910 --> 00:09:33,180
and the neighbors don't support it it

216
00:09:36,410 --> 00:09:34,920
was all made up by Bigelow so that he

217
00:09:38,269 --> 00:09:36,420
can get his buddy Harry Reid to give him

218
00:09:39,829 --> 00:09:38,279
money and there's really nothing that

219
00:09:41,630 --> 00:09:39,839
happened in there now well you know

220
00:09:43,850 --> 00:09:41,640
that's not true there were hundreds of

221
00:09:45,530 --> 00:09:43,860
incidents these guys basically lived on

222
00:09:47,630 --> 00:09:45,540
the property and it wasn't just them

223
00:09:49,310 --> 00:09:47,640
seeing it was the whole you went to

224
00:09:51,710 --> 00:09:49,320
Basin was seeing this stuff so is that

225
00:09:53,690 --> 00:09:51,720
like so that the the online trolls and

226
00:09:55,850 --> 00:09:53,700
the people that don't actually know

227
00:09:57,670 --> 00:09:55,860
anybody directly involved and they're

228
00:10:00,829 --> 00:09:57,680
just kind of commenting and

229
00:10:02,449 --> 00:10:00,839
so the the idea would be that like all

230
00:10:04,670 --> 00:10:02,459
these scientists and people in

231
00:10:06,769 --> 00:10:04,680
government everybody would make this all

232
00:10:08,389 --> 00:10:06,779
up in perfect coordination and that

233
00:10:10,550 --> 00:10:08,399
they're all drinking the same Kool-Aid

234
00:10:12,530 --> 00:10:10,560
that's the kind of theory that people

235
00:10:15,350 --> 00:10:12,540
come up with and so the cops are making

236
00:10:18,230 --> 00:10:15,360
it up police officers the Mormon Church

237
00:10:20,150 --> 00:10:18,240
officials uh junior Hicks who had a

238
00:10:22,730 --> 00:10:20,160
catalog of several hundred cases that

239
00:10:24,949 --> 00:10:22,740
he'd investigated from the 50s 60s and

240
00:10:27,710 --> 00:10:24,959
70s UFO incidents and other weird stuff

241
00:10:30,290 --> 00:10:27,720
uh the the Ute tribe who lived there all

242
00:10:31,730 --> 00:10:30,300
the neighbors the ranchers hundreds and

243
00:10:34,970 --> 00:10:31,740
hundreds of people who've seen these

244
00:10:36,769 --> 00:10:34,980
weird things not just UFOs uh and of

245
00:10:38,930 --> 00:10:36,779
different shapes and sizes but also

246
00:10:40,490 --> 00:10:38,940
creatures and there had been cattle

247
00:10:43,550 --> 00:10:40,500
mutilations all this stuff has been

248
00:10:45,710 --> 00:10:43,560
going on it's still going on although it

249
00:10:47,329 --> 00:10:45,720
is it is a challenge from the beginning

250
00:10:49,730 --> 00:10:47,339
it's a challenge because it's always

251
00:10:51,829 --> 00:10:49,740
changing it's never quite the same no no

252
00:10:53,930 --> 00:10:51,839
two incidents happen exactly alike all

253
00:10:55,610 --> 00:10:53,940
the same they it seems to know what

254
00:10:57,889 --> 00:10:55,620
people are going to do before they do it

255
00:11:00,650 --> 00:10:57,899
it will give you a glimpse of something

256
00:11:03,050 --> 00:11:00,660
and then but doesn't make it easy to

257
00:11:04,910 --> 00:11:03,060
document it so these I'm hearing these

258
00:11:07,130 --> 00:11:04,920
stories from my nid's friends my

259
00:11:09,110 --> 00:11:07,140
colleagues I'd get bits and pieces that

260
00:11:11,810 --> 00:11:09,120
they would throw me a breadcrumb now and

261
00:11:12,769 --> 00:11:11,820
then and it's driving me crazy from 96

262
00:11:14,930 --> 00:11:12,779
on

263
00:11:16,970 --> 00:11:14,940
and I was I started bugging them hey

264
00:11:19,610 --> 00:11:16,980
when do I get to go you know I guess

265
00:11:21,829 --> 00:11:19,620
there had been enough of a downturn in

266
00:11:23,509 --> 00:11:21,839
the level of activity that they figured

267
00:11:26,630 --> 00:11:23,519
well what the heck maybe we can have

268
00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:26,640
this guy come there and and I either I

269
00:11:31,009 --> 00:11:29,040
would stimulate some activity myself or

270
00:11:32,750 --> 00:11:31,019
I could help them publicize the idea

271
00:11:34,730 --> 00:11:32,760
that maybe they need to find other

272
00:11:36,790 --> 00:11:34,740
ranches other hot spots oh they were

273
00:11:39,650 --> 00:11:36,800
using you as baits

274
00:11:40,790 --> 00:11:39,660
well that is true that first visit I I

275
00:11:43,130 --> 00:11:40,800
think the first time I went there was

276
00:11:44,569 --> 00:11:43,140
column he did use me as bait stuck me on

277
00:11:46,490 --> 00:11:44,579
a chair and let me there left me there

278
00:11:48,170 --> 00:11:46,500
let me ask you a question so I mean this

279
00:11:49,310 --> 00:11:48,180
is something I think lost on on people

280
00:11:51,410 --> 00:11:49,320
because it just hadn't been said

281
00:11:53,210 --> 00:11:51,420
properly I mean I know it to be true and

282
00:11:56,509 --> 00:11:53,220
you guys know it to be true the the

283
00:11:58,190 --> 00:11:56,519
Dia's interest in in Skinwalker Ranch

284
00:12:00,110 --> 00:11:58,200
and yeah as you said you have the

285
00:12:02,090 --> 00:12:00,120
problem the program was about UFOs with

286
00:12:05,389 --> 00:12:02,100
allsup Advanced Aerospace weapon system

287
00:12:08,569 --> 00:12:05,399
applications program right the idea was

288
00:12:10,009 --> 00:12:08,579
to see what phenomenon is causing this

289
00:12:11,690 --> 00:12:10,019
it they knew it's not a lot of people

290
00:12:15,530 --> 00:12:11,700
making stuff up I mean they can't say

291
00:12:16,970 --> 00:12:15,540
that Dr saw what he saw only he saw that

292
00:12:20,210 --> 00:12:16,980
they're not reproducible all that stuff

293
00:12:22,790 --> 00:12:20,220
but the point of the program was to look

294
00:12:24,430 --> 00:12:22,800
if there is foreign adversaries with the

295
00:12:27,110 --> 00:12:24,440
technology the U.S doesn't have

296
00:12:29,269 --> 00:12:27,120
implementing those on American soil that

297
00:12:31,430 --> 00:12:29,279
was a big part of why the DIA was

298
00:12:32,810 --> 00:12:31,440
involved absolutely the phenomenon

299
00:12:34,610 --> 00:12:32,820
what's going on these events are

300
00:12:36,410 --> 00:12:34,620
happening we have evidence there's

301
00:12:38,509 --> 00:12:36,420
evidence there's proof this is happening

302
00:12:42,350 --> 00:12:38,519
with some things but the point was

303
00:12:44,629 --> 00:12:42,360
Protect America look for disruptive

304
00:12:47,990 --> 00:12:44,639
Technologies of known foreign Nations

305
00:12:49,850 --> 00:12:48,000
and if we can't and then we that had to

306
00:12:52,129 --> 00:12:49,860
be excluded although there was some

307
00:12:54,110 --> 00:12:52,139
meddling for other nations right it had

308
00:12:56,389 --> 00:12:54,120
to be excluded and that's what's

309
00:12:58,449 --> 00:12:56,399
interesting the point was to look for

310
00:13:00,710 --> 00:12:58,459
disruptive Technologies from known

311
00:13:04,310 --> 00:13:00,720
adversarial foreign Nations is that

312
00:13:06,949 --> 00:13:04,320
correct yes I mean the the the primary

313
00:13:10,970 --> 00:13:06,959
remit of this program was threat

314
00:13:12,590 --> 00:13:10,980
analysis and so like the Genesis of what

315
00:13:16,190 --> 00:13:12,600
really intrigued lakatsuki when he read

316
00:13:18,949 --> 00:13:16,200
red hunt for the skinwalker was that you

317
00:13:22,310 --> 00:13:18,959
know objects of a known origin were

318
00:13:24,829 --> 00:13:22,320
flying with impunity around Skinwalker

319
00:13:28,610 --> 00:13:24,839
Ranch around the Uinta Basin and nobody

320
00:13:31,069 --> 00:13:28,620
seems to give a damn so so his his idea

321
00:13:33,410 --> 00:13:31,079
was are we talking about foreign

322
00:13:35,449 --> 00:13:33,420
adversaries because that's a very big

323
00:13:37,910 --> 00:13:35,459
element of the defense intelligence

324
00:13:40,730 --> 00:13:37,920
agency or are we talking about some

325
00:13:43,670 --> 00:13:40,740
something else but we should be damn

326
00:13:45,650 --> 00:13:43,680
well investigating it because

327
00:13:47,750 --> 00:13:45,660
um otherwise everybody's text somebody's

328
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:47,760
yeah I mean is it coming from Hill Air

329
00:13:51,590 --> 00:13:50,160
Force Base in Utah are they testing out

330
00:13:54,350 --> 00:13:51,600
new toys

331
00:13:57,230 --> 00:13:54,360
um unlikely because lacaski and and

332
00:13:59,210 --> 00:13:57,240
defense intelligence agency would be

333
00:14:02,030 --> 00:13:59,220
able to eliminate that as a possibility

334
00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:02,040
pretty easily but the fact is that there

335
00:14:10,009 --> 00:14:06,480
were Legions over the Decades of unusual

336
00:14:13,069 --> 00:14:10,019
aircraft that were looking solid and

337
00:14:15,170 --> 00:14:13,079
metallic to a lot of witnesses the that

338
00:14:17,569 --> 00:14:15,180
were flying with impunity there were no

339
00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:17,579
fighter jets being launched from nearby

340
00:14:23,690 --> 00:14:20,160
Air Force bases to intercept them and

341
00:14:26,210 --> 00:14:23,700
somehow this was happening in the middle

342
00:14:27,889 --> 00:14:26,220
of the United States you guys in your

343
00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:27,899
government program you might have had

344
00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:30,480
ways to pick up certain types of data

345
00:14:34,610 --> 00:14:32,880
that might not be public but as far as

346
00:14:36,110 --> 00:14:34,620
like why don't we have a great picture

347
00:14:38,569 --> 00:14:36,120
of something this is the thing everybody

348
00:14:39,949 --> 00:14:38,579
asked me it's a great question what do

349
00:14:42,230 --> 00:14:39,959
you guys both of you why don't we have

350
00:14:44,930 --> 00:14:42,240
like the great money shot not that they

351
00:14:47,090 --> 00:14:44,940
don't exist not that things haven't

352
00:14:49,430 --> 00:14:47,100
passed by our eyes but the Technologies

353
00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:49,440
from governments but why don't we why

354
00:14:54,129 --> 00:14:51,360
don't at the ranch why don't we have

355
00:14:57,650 --> 00:14:54,139
that you've seen people the kind of

356
00:14:59,629 --> 00:14:57,660
juvenile criticism that pops up that

357
00:15:02,210 --> 00:14:59,639
people say this can't be real therefore

358
00:15:04,370 --> 00:15:02,220
it isn't you guys are making it up

359
00:15:07,069 --> 00:15:04,380
um I've seen people the same people who

360
00:15:08,810 --> 00:15:07,079
complained nothing in the ASAP documents

361
00:15:11,030 --> 00:15:08,820
that we've seen so far says this is a

362
00:15:13,129 --> 00:15:11,040
UFO program and then the same people

363
00:15:15,230 --> 00:15:13,139
will complain it's only supposed to be a

364
00:15:17,629 --> 00:15:15,240
UFO program why is it studying

365
00:15:19,189 --> 00:15:17,639
werewolves and and uh you know and

366
00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:19,199
cattle mutilations and things of that

367
00:15:23,210 --> 00:15:21,360
sort people can't make up their mind

368
00:15:25,670 --> 00:15:23,220
what the reason is for them to not like

369
00:15:28,310 --> 00:15:25,680
it but the fact is stuff have been going

370
00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:28,320
on there strange phenomena UFOs or

371
00:15:32,870 --> 00:15:30,480
different shapes and sizes for decades

372
00:15:35,150 --> 00:15:32,880
maybe longer that it had been seen

373
00:15:37,129 --> 00:15:35,160
throughout the Uinta Basin strange

374
00:15:39,110 --> 00:15:37,139
phenomena strange Cryptid creatures

375
00:15:41,810 --> 00:15:39,120
animals that probably shouldn't uh

376
00:15:43,850 --> 00:15:41,820
shouldn't exist and that whatever was

377
00:15:45,829 --> 00:15:43,860
there was an intelligence that it was

378
00:15:48,050 --> 00:15:45,839
elusive that it would always stay one

379
00:15:50,090 --> 00:15:48,060
step ahead that it was probably smarter

380
00:15:51,769 --> 00:15:50,100
than us the idea that there's an

381
00:15:53,329 --> 00:15:51,779
intelligence something higher up on the

382
00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:53,339
food chain people have a hard time

383
00:15:57,350 --> 00:15:55,680
accepting that and they can't accept

384
00:15:59,750 --> 00:15:57,360
that something could be smarter than us

385
00:16:02,509 --> 00:15:59,760
and then it would show us glimpses for

386
00:16:04,430 --> 00:16:02,519
whatever reason but not enough to

387
00:16:06,710 --> 00:16:04,440
definitively prove anything

388
00:16:09,050 --> 00:16:06,720
yeah I I think that's a very good

389
00:16:10,970 --> 00:16:09,060
summary of of of what is actually

390
00:16:14,930 --> 00:16:10,980
happening out there

391
00:16:17,569 --> 00:16:14,940
um we have uh transient phenomena that

392
00:16:19,310 --> 00:16:17,579
are happening all the time uh of what

393
00:16:20,990 --> 00:16:19,320
was happening all the time on skin

394
00:16:23,569 --> 00:16:21,000
marker wrench

395
00:16:28,009 --> 00:16:23,579
um I you know I think we're now at

396
00:16:30,350 --> 00:16:28,019
probably at least 50 separate people uh

397
00:16:32,870 --> 00:16:30,360
Witnesses who have personal experienced

398
00:16:35,210 --> 00:16:32,880
stuff on uh on the skin marker Ranch

399
00:16:36,829 --> 00:16:35,220
it's probably closer to a hundred I

400
00:16:40,430 --> 00:16:36,839
don't know what the exact number is but

401
00:16:43,069 --> 00:16:40,440
it began in 1994 it's continuing here we

402
00:16:44,749 --> 00:16:43,079
are in 2023 and it's still happening

403
00:16:47,269 --> 00:16:44,759
it's still being observed it's still

404
00:16:51,470 --> 00:16:47,279
being measured it's the longest running

405
00:16:55,129 --> 00:16:51,480
UFO study probably in in in history uh

406
00:16:57,829 --> 00:16:55,139
arguably known what known UFOs that

407
00:16:59,389 --> 00:16:57,839
probably known UFOs yeah

408
00:17:02,509 --> 00:16:59,399
um I mean there is a project in Norway

409
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:02,519
that maybe uh maybe you know sort of

410
00:17:09,890 --> 00:17:06,480
parallel but the bottom line is that the

411
00:17:12,949 --> 00:17:09,900
um the attempts to measure uh this

412
00:17:16,309 --> 00:17:12,959
phenomenon and to capture data we're

413
00:17:18,770 --> 00:17:16,319
somewhat successful with nids and you

414
00:17:21,350 --> 00:17:18,780
know I've seen a lot of criticism that

415
00:17:24,189 --> 00:17:21,360
needs never gave out any information and

416
00:17:26,929 --> 00:17:24,199
the fact is we had a website that was

417
00:17:29,770 --> 00:17:26,939
replete with scientific reports we had

418
00:17:33,850 --> 00:17:29,780
dozens and dozens of scientific reports

419
00:17:36,710 --> 00:17:33,860
on various aspects of our investigations

420
00:17:38,169 --> 00:17:36,720
and it was for the public to see I mean

421
00:17:41,450 --> 00:17:38,179
the public was

422
00:17:44,450 --> 00:17:41,460
extremely interested in that website it

423
00:17:47,210 --> 00:17:44,460
came down in 2004 when nids went on ice

424
00:17:49,610 --> 00:17:47,220
but the fact is the criticism that needs

425
00:17:53,870 --> 00:17:49,620
never gave out any information is

426
00:17:55,610 --> 00:17:53,880
completely erroneous as with ASAP George

427
00:17:57,529 --> 00:17:55,620
uncovered and revealed to the world some

428
00:17:59,570 --> 00:17:57,539
of these what they call derds defense

429
00:18:01,430 --> 00:17:59,580
intelligence reference documents which

430
00:18:04,789 --> 00:18:01,440
was part of the initial thrust which is

431
00:18:06,590 --> 00:18:04,799
what is the threat 50 years from now you

432
00:18:09,409 --> 00:18:06,600
know put all stigma aside what are we

433
00:18:11,450 --> 00:18:09,419
seeing what is being reported what is

434
00:18:13,070 --> 00:18:11,460
this technology what what could that

435
00:18:15,850 --> 00:18:13,080
threat be and you had all these was it

436
00:18:18,710 --> 00:18:15,860
22 of these dirt

437
00:18:21,470 --> 00:18:18,720
38 of these Papers written and some of

438
00:18:24,049 --> 00:18:21,480
which are are public and that that's

439
00:18:25,190 --> 00:18:24,059
pretty valuable to be putting out uh to

440
00:18:26,450 --> 00:18:25,200
the public I just got a personal

441
00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:26,460
question

442
00:18:31,850 --> 00:18:29,520
um being a scientist and being thrown

443
00:18:33,110 --> 00:18:31,860
into these uninvestigated Realms where

444
00:18:35,690 --> 00:18:33,120
you have to kind of pioneer

445
00:18:37,490 --> 00:18:35,700
methodologies and really figure out how

446
00:18:40,570 --> 00:18:37,500
to do this

447
00:18:43,310 --> 00:18:40,580
have you had a can you name a moment

448
00:18:45,590 --> 00:18:43,320
where conceptually you went from kind of

449
00:18:47,450 --> 00:18:45,600
like I'm a scientist I'm skeptical but

450
00:18:49,610 --> 00:18:47,460
this sounds interesting let's look into

451
00:18:51,770 --> 00:18:49,620
some of this weird language you read in

452
00:18:55,370 --> 00:18:51,780
a you know advertisement has there been

453
00:18:57,470 --> 00:18:55,380
a moment that just solidified for you

454
00:18:59,210 --> 00:18:57,480
well you no longer have the luxury of

455
00:19:01,970 --> 00:18:59,220
disbelief that there is a phenomenon

456
00:19:03,890 --> 00:19:01,980
going on that it includes UFOs was

457
00:19:05,690 --> 00:19:03,900
there's one thing that you can put your

458
00:19:09,169 --> 00:19:05,700
finger on that says that did something

459
00:19:12,770 --> 00:19:09,179
to my way of looking at it

460
00:19:15,470 --> 00:19:12,780
well there were probably two events that

461
00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:15,480
happened very very quickly

462
00:19:21,490 --> 00:19:18,000
um right after Robert Bigelow purchased

463
00:19:26,330 --> 00:19:21,500
skin marker wrench in um in

464
00:19:31,010 --> 00:19:26,340
1996 it was around August of 1996.

465
00:19:33,350 --> 00:19:31,020
um I and Eric Davis and to some extent

466
00:19:34,250 --> 00:19:33,360
other people were deployed up on the

467
00:19:37,070 --> 00:19:34,260
property

468
00:19:40,490 --> 00:19:37,080
for you know five day tours ten day

469
00:19:41,590 --> 00:19:40,500
tours you know whatever but you know in

470
00:19:48,289 --> 00:19:41,600
in

471
00:19:50,510 --> 00:19:48,299
homestead one

472
00:19:52,190 --> 00:19:50,520
um near this newly built command and

473
00:19:54,529 --> 00:19:52,200
control center that we had just

474
00:19:57,049 --> 00:19:54,539
installed on the property

475
00:20:01,310 --> 00:19:57,059
um I was standing there with

476
00:20:05,390 --> 00:20:01,320
um I believe it was Eric Davis when

477
00:20:08,570 --> 00:20:05,400
coming from over Skinwalker Ridge which

478
00:20:11,210 --> 00:20:08,580
is the uh which is the cliff that that

479
00:20:14,570 --> 00:20:11,220
borders the northern edge of Skinwalker

480
00:20:17,990 --> 00:20:14,580
Ranch right over the the cliff comes

481
00:20:21,409 --> 00:20:18,000
this very brightly lit low-flying object

482
00:20:24,350 --> 00:20:21,419
that was completely silent and it came

483
00:20:28,010 --> 00:20:24,360
from you know came from the north flew

484
00:20:30,890 --> 00:20:28,020
right over myself and Eric Davis and did

485
00:20:34,669 --> 00:20:30,900
a perfect herpin turn

486
00:20:36,590 --> 00:20:34,679
right above us silent and it was it was

487
00:20:38,750 --> 00:20:36,600
low enough that we you know it's very

488
00:20:41,570 --> 00:20:38,760
difficult to estimate altitude at night

489
00:20:44,450 --> 00:20:41,580
but this was a fast moving it was moving

490
00:20:46,730 --> 00:20:44,460
probably as fast as you see a lot of

491
00:20:49,370 --> 00:20:46,740
f-18s flying around Nellis Air Force

492
00:20:52,130 --> 00:20:49,380
Base in Las Vegas it was flying at least

493
00:20:56,930 --> 00:20:52,140
as fast as that but what really caught

494
00:20:59,870 --> 00:20:56,940
my eye was this incredibly sharp 180

495
00:21:02,350 --> 00:20:59,880
degree turn and then just kind of went

496
00:21:06,250 --> 00:21:02,360
back and followed his Exact Track

497
00:21:09,590 --> 00:21:06,260
disappeared North over Skinwalker Ridge

498
00:21:11,690 --> 00:21:09,600
and it was low enough that we should

499
00:21:15,289 --> 00:21:11,700
have heard something I mean we could see

500
00:21:18,409 --> 00:21:15,299
it very very brightly lit and there was

501
00:21:21,650 --> 00:21:18,419
a spooky silence associated with it and

502
00:21:25,010 --> 00:21:21,660
I knew sort of deep in my sort of gut

503
00:21:28,789 --> 00:21:25,020
that this was something else I mean it

504
00:21:31,490 --> 00:21:28,799
was very very it was a perfectly

505
00:21:34,070 --> 00:21:31,500
executed herpin turn I I think the

506
00:21:38,510 --> 00:21:34,080
g-forces that would have been sort of

507
00:21:42,830 --> 00:21:38,520
imparted to a pilot on this thing and

508
00:21:45,110 --> 00:21:42,840
this was 1996 would have been absolutely

509
00:21:48,830 --> 00:21:45,120
enormous you know I mean we're talking

510
00:21:50,990 --> 00:21:48,840
strawberry jam around the cockpit so you

511
00:21:53,810 --> 00:21:51,000
see this with your own eyes yeah I mean

512
00:21:56,330 --> 00:21:53,820
I was standing looking at this thing as

513
00:21:58,190 --> 00:21:56,340
it executed this perfect turn right

514
00:22:02,330 --> 00:21:58,200
above my head so that that chain that

515
00:22:04,610 --> 00:22:02,340
that gave you a personal huh okay yeah

516
00:22:08,570 --> 00:22:04,620
what's going on here something different

517
00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:08,580
because I mean we had seen stuff that we

518
00:22:14,029 --> 00:22:10,799
couldn't really sort of you know get our

519
00:22:15,830 --> 00:22:14,039
teeth into this was really kind of in

520
00:22:18,409 --> 00:22:15,840
your face you know and that that

521
00:22:20,450 --> 00:22:18,419
happened within two months of of being

522
00:22:22,610 --> 00:22:20,460
deployed on the property the second

523
00:22:24,830 --> 00:22:22,620
major thing happened a few months later

524
00:22:26,570 --> 00:22:24,840
we were standing and again Eric Davis

525
00:22:28,909 --> 00:22:26,580
was there

526
00:22:31,850 --> 00:22:28,919
um we were standing out in this small

527
00:22:34,010 --> 00:22:31,860
posture near Homestead to what's called

528
00:22:37,909 --> 00:22:34,020
Homestead two on or used to be called

529
00:22:40,070 --> 00:22:37,919
Homestead two on skin marker Ranch and

530
00:22:41,450 --> 00:22:40,080
um we had two dogs with us

531
00:22:45,649 --> 00:22:41,460
and

532
00:22:48,950 --> 00:22:45,659
probably a hundred feet to my left

533
00:22:52,730 --> 00:22:48,960
maybe 50 yards to my left suddenly out

534
00:22:55,850 --> 00:22:52,740
of nowhere this basketball sized object

535
00:22:59,930 --> 00:22:55,860
appeared about 15 feet above the ground

536
00:23:03,049 --> 00:22:59,940
it was brightly lit silent and it just

537
00:23:05,230 --> 00:23:03,059
moved around both myself and Eric Davis

538
00:23:08,330 --> 00:23:05,240
were looking at it and then it

539
00:23:10,190 --> 00:23:08,340
maintained the dogs were very silent

540
00:23:12,710 --> 00:23:10,200
they were right beside us when this was

541
00:23:14,990 --> 00:23:12,720
happening but then it vanished I mean it

542
00:23:18,529 --> 00:23:15,000
just kind of disappeared so this is uh

543
00:23:21,529 --> 00:23:18,539
Dr Eric Davis who has worked in these

544
00:23:23,870 --> 00:23:21,539
government UFO programs right who's a

545
00:23:25,430 --> 00:23:23,880
brilliant scientist so you guys are

546
00:23:27,169 --> 00:23:25,440
standing there and this is the second

547
00:23:29,510 --> 00:23:27,179
thing that really kind of shows you in

548
00:23:31,610 --> 00:23:29,520
your face you're saying basketball sized

549
00:23:34,010 --> 00:23:31,620
at a relatively close distance yeah it

550
00:23:37,070 --> 00:23:34,020
was probably 15 feet off the ground and

551
00:23:40,490 --> 00:23:37,080
probably 50 yards towards South now this

552
00:23:42,470 --> 00:23:40,500
is a very small pasture bounded by trees

553
00:23:44,450 --> 00:23:42,480
on either side and Pitch Black Knight

554
00:23:46,669 --> 00:23:44,460
like I mean yeah we're talking close to

555
00:23:50,029 --> 00:23:46,679
midnight here we were on a night watch

556
00:23:52,430 --> 00:23:50,039
we were actually there to check out a

557
00:23:55,250 --> 00:23:52,440
report from another investigator who had

558
00:23:57,289 --> 00:23:55,260
seen weird lights around this Homestead

559
00:23:59,750 --> 00:23:57,299
too so we were there the following night

560
00:24:01,789 --> 00:23:59,760
to to see if we could see anything okay

561
00:24:04,070 --> 00:24:01,799
so where are your cameras where your

562
00:24:06,830 --> 00:24:04,080
video cameras that's you know what well

563
00:24:10,010 --> 00:24:06,840
we what Eric Davis had a pair of night

564
00:24:12,970 --> 00:24:10,020
vision binoculars I had a pair I had I

565
00:24:15,529 --> 00:24:12,980
mean this was 1996 so I had a camera

566
00:24:17,930 --> 00:24:15,539
with infrared

567
00:24:20,029 --> 00:24:17,940
um infrared film back in the old days

568
00:24:23,169 --> 00:24:20,039
when we used to use film

569
00:24:26,450 --> 00:24:23,179
um infrared film in the camera so

570
00:24:29,570 --> 00:24:26,460
this happened probably three to four or

571
00:24:32,630 --> 00:24:29,580
five seconds okay so this was not a

572
00:24:34,490 --> 00:24:32,640
thing where we uh we sort of set up the

573
00:24:37,070 --> 00:24:34,500
camera on a tripod and start filming

574
00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:37,080
kind of thing this was boom and then it

575
00:24:42,590 --> 00:24:39,840
was gone but we did have long these

576
00:24:44,870 --> 00:24:42,600
incredibly powerful flashlights that law

577
00:24:47,029 --> 00:24:44,880
enforcement used I mean there were this

578
00:24:49,250 --> 00:24:47,039
massive batteries I mean these 20 pound

579
00:24:51,710 --> 00:24:49,260
batteries that you would carry and we

580
00:24:53,750 --> 00:24:51,720
lit up the pasture within a second of

581
00:24:56,990 --> 00:24:53,760
this thing disappearing I mean we lit up

582
00:24:59,149 --> 00:24:57,000
everything and you know

583
00:25:01,190 --> 00:24:59,159
first hypothesis is that somebody was

584
00:25:02,990 --> 00:25:01,200
playing a trick with us or you know

585
00:25:05,270 --> 00:25:03,000
somebody was projecting something from

586
00:25:08,529 --> 00:25:05,280
somewhere but we could find no evidence

587
00:25:11,510 --> 00:25:08,539
whatsoever of

588
00:25:13,850 --> 00:25:11,520
anybody except us in this pasture and

589
00:25:15,890 --> 00:25:13,860
it's dangerous to go like going to

590
00:25:18,110 --> 00:25:15,900
Skinwalker ranchers also live in rural

591
00:25:20,270 --> 00:25:18,120
myself like it's dangerous but today

592
00:25:21,770 --> 00:25:20,280
walk on people's property I mean it is

593
00:25:23,169 --> 00:25:21,780
like a major thing to be sneaking around

594
00:25:26,269 --> 00:25:23,179
there and you got an investigate

595
00:25:27,830 --> 00:25:26,279
investigative team government-led on

596
00:25:29,390 --> 00:25:27,840
that property I know there have been

597
00:25:31,669 --> 00:25:29,400
some very serious security that was

598
00:25:33,350 --> 00:25:31,679
going on at that time during some of the

599
00:25:36,110 --> 00:25:33,360
time you're working too so right it's

600
00:25:38,890 --> 00:25:36,120
just it's wild to me that you so you get

601
00:25:43,130 --> 00:25:38,900
these two displays and that that does

602
00:25:46,490 --> 00:25:43,140
change how does it change the way that

603
00:25:52,930 --> 00:25:46,500
you look at what you're doing now well

604
00:25:59,350 --> 00:25:52,940
you you know that my personal experience

605
00:26:02,570 --> 00:25:59,360
encompasses now as of 1996 1997

606
00:26:05,990 --> 00:26:02,580
objects that are very difficult to

607
00:26:08,930 --> 00:26:06,000
explain that I personally experienced so

608
00:26:12,049 --> 00:26:08,940
I mean do I

609
00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:12,059
write a scientific paper about this no

610
00:26:16,610 --> 00:26:14,640
um there's it's not reproducible there's

611
00:26:20,630 --> 00:26:16,620
not enough evidence these are transient

612
00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:20,640
phenomena but the in your face nature of

613
00:26:26,990 --> 00:26:22,799
both of these events

614
00:26:29,029 --> 00:26:27,000
um and the the way they happened and uh

615
00:26:31,970 --> 00:26:29,039
how they happened

616
00:26:34,850 --> 00:26:31,980
um changed my perspective because now

617
00:26:37,070 --> 00:26:34,860
you know I've personally seen something

618
00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:37,080
that I can't explain and he saw things

619
00:26:40,669 --> 00:26:39,120
that were way more spectacular after

620
00:26:43,250 --> 00:26:40,679
that those are just the first ones I

621
00:26:46,010 --> 00:26:43,260
mean some of the things that we reported

622
00:26:49,430 --> 00:26:46,020
in the book on for the skinwalker were

623
00:26:52,669 --> 00:26:49,440
just mind-bogglingly weird and then you

624
00:26:55,010 --> 00:26:52,679
know I wish the the stories that kind of

625
00:26:56,990 --> 00:26:55,020
got under my skin cause the the

626
00:26:58,549 --> 00:26:57,000
Goosebumps were the what you'd call

627
00:27:00,409 --> 00:26:58,559
Poltergeist now we don't know if it's

628
00:27:02,330 --> 00:27:00,419
Poltergeist but it's just mind games

629
00:27:04,130 --> 00:27:02,340
that are played on but the ranching

630
00:27:06,409 --> 00:27:04,140
family and I think on you guys you know

631
00:27:09,710 --> 00:27:06,419
things disappearing a frying pan enough

632
00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:09,720
in the freezer or uh the the wife uh

633
00:27:13,490 --> 00:27:11,520
brings home all the groceries puts it

634
00:27:15,169 --> 00:27:13,500
away comes back in the room and it's all

635
00:27:16,850 --> 00:27:15,179
back in the bags that kind of weird

636
00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:16,860
stuff did those kind of things happen to

637
00:27:21,649 --> 00:27:19,200
you and and what was going on there much

638
00:27:25,310 --> 00:27:21,659
much less uh though there were

639
00:27:28,250 --> 00:27:25,320
definitely two phases of activity on

640
00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:28,260
skin marker ranch when when the Gormans

641
00:27:32,029 --> 00:27:29,760
what we call the Gormans and we're going

642
00:27:34,370 --> 00:27:32,039
to stick with that name even though

643
00:27:37,850 --> 00:27:34,380
um you know it's out

644
00:27:39,010 --> 00:27:37,860
um when they moved on in 1994 all the

645
00:27:42,529 --> 00:27:39,020
way through

646
00:27:45,470 --> 00:27:42,539
1996 when Robert Bigelow purchased the

647
00:27:47,750 --> 00:27:45,480
property I mean they had gone through a

648
00:27:50,450 --> 00:27:47,760
Litany of

649
00:27:55,669 --> 00:27:50,460
um Poltergeist activity and essentially

650
00:27:57,769 --> 00:27:55,679
mind games they were victims of of of a

651
00:28:00,890 --> 00:27:57,779
series of Mind Games that seemed to be

652
00:28:02,510 --> 00:28:00,900
escalating over time I mean when when we

653
00:28:05,450 --> 00:28:02,520
first encountered them on the property

654
00:28:07,130 --> 00:28:05,460
they were all sleeping in the front room

655
00:28:08,810 --> 00:28:07,140
of the house I mean they were huddled

656
00:28:11,330 --> 00:28:08,820
together they had

657
00:28:14,269 --> 00:28:11,340
um you know they were they were sort of

658
00:28:15,850 --> 00:28:14,279
stressed to put it mildly because they

659
00:28:19,010 --> 00:28:15,860
couldn't figure out what was happening

660
00:28:21,049 --> 00:28:19,020
uh many of their cattle had died for

661
00:28:23,510 --> 00:28:21,059
under mysterious circumstances either

662
00:28:26,090 --> 00:28:23,520
through mutilations that happened on

663
00:28:28,370 --> 00:28:26,100
their property or disappearance and

664
00:28:31,130 --> 00:28:28,380
these were very very expensive high-end

665
00:28:34,190 --> 00:28:31,140
cattle I mean the normal attrition rate

666
00:28:36,289 --> 00:28:34,200
for an 80 herd cattle had to be less

667
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:36,299
than one percent to make economic sense

668
00:28:42,769 --> 00:28:38,880
and we were talking 20 percent attrition

669
00:28:44,570 --> 00:28:42,779
over a period of almost two years so

670
00:28:47,269 --> 00:28:44,580
um you know the the Gorman family

671
00:28:50,269 --> 00:28:47,279
essentially were put out of business by

672
00:28:53,870 --> 00:28:50,279
what was going on on the property so we

673
00:28:56,269 --> 00:28:53,880
met a very very stressed family that had

674
00:28:59,450 --> 00:28:56,279
been victimized by something that they

675
00:29:02,630 --> 00:28:59,460
could not understand but once we got on

676
00:29:05,390 --> 00:29:02,640
the property you know suddenly we were

677
00:29:08,570 --> 00:29:05,400
hunting this I mean the whole mindset

678
00:29:12,830 --> 00:29:08,580
changed on the property beginning in

679
00:29:15,470 --> 00:29:12,840
September of 1996 the hunter or the the

680
00:29:17,210 --> 00:29:15,480
haunted became you know the hunters so

681
00:29:19,789 --> 00:29:17,220
we were deployed on the property

682
00:29:22,430 --> 00:29:19,799
specifically to seek out what was on the

683
00:29:24,529 --> 00:29:22,440
property to try to measure it we we

684
00:29:25,850 --> 00:29:24,539
started incorporating sensors on the

685
00:29:28,430 --> 00:29:25,860
property

686
00:29:32,029 --> 00:29:28,440
but the whole attitude mental attitude

687
00:29:34,610 --> 00:29:32,039
changed dramatically overnight from this

688
00:29:38,630 --> 00:29:34,620
family who were being victimized in this

689
00:29:40,430 --> 00:29:38,640
sort of you know Relentless way to the

690
00:29:43,210 --> 00:29:40,440
the point where they had to sell to get

691
00:29:46,430 --> 00:29:43,220
off the property to suddenly we were

692
00:29:48,649 --> 00:29:46,440
equipped we were there we were not

693
00:29:51,049 --> 00:29:48,659
victimized we were hunting this thing

694
00:29:52,730 --> 00:29:51,059
what was on the property which is why we

695
00:29:56,210 --> 00:29:52,740
termed the book hunt for the skinwalker

696
00:29:58,730 --> 00:29:56,220
we were we were hunting this and um it

697
00:30:01,430 --> 00:29:58,740
was a very very different

698
00:30:03,889 --> 00:30:01,440
um mindset let's talk about this idea

699
00:30:05,750 --> 00:30:03,899
because uh the other aspect of it that

700
00:30:07,850 --> 00:30:05,760
gets a lot of attention now including

701
00:30:10,610 --> 00:30:07,860
from critics and debunkers are creatures

702
00:30:11,810 --> 00:30:10,620
call them Cryptids animals that don't

703
00:30:14,090 --> 00:30:11,820
really exist

704
00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:14,100
there were you guys saw those things at

705
00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:16,080
the Rancher saw them other people who

706
00:30:19,850 --> 00:30:18,000
live in that area saw these things

707
00:30:21,710 --> 00:30:19,860
animals that should not be there

708
00:30:24,230 --> 00:30:21,720
remember one of the stories we told in

709
00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:24,240
the book was about a a big hyena

710
00:30:29,029 --> 00:30:26,640
muscular hyena thing with the tail of

711
00:30:31,070 --> 00:30:29,039
what looked like a fox a big bushy tail

712
00:30:33,409 --> 00:30:31,080
right that it was attacking a horse it

713
00:30:35,389 --> 00:30:33,419
actually wounded the horse's calves with

714
00:30:38,750 --> 00:30:35,399
these scratches and then disappeared

715
00:30:41,389 --> 00:30:38,760
there were the Rancher who shot two

716
00:30:44,029 --> 00:30:41,399
creatures out of a tree one great big

717
00:30:46,250 --> 00:30:44,039
realm thing he shot it and it vanished

718
00:30:48,230 --> 00:30:46,260
he shot something else out of a tree and

719
00:30:50,510 --> 00:30:48,240
it was like a dinosaur it left these two

720
00:30:52,669 --> 00:30:50,520
really weird tracks in the snow and you

721
00:30:54,909 --> 00:30:52,679
guys go in and Chase it there were other

722
00:30:57,470 --> 00:30:54,919
animals other creatures that were seen

723
00:30:59,389 --> 00:30:57,480
exotic birds things that don't belong

724
00:31:01,610 --> 00:30:59,399
there they're not native it was as if

725
00:31:04,430 --> 00:31:01,620
they're from another reality it was as

726
00:31:06,830 --> 00:31:04,440
if they're from another time right um it

727
00:31:09,230 --> 00:31:06,840
was almost as if you were being shown

728
00:31:11,149 --> 00:31:09,240
this stuff it was so ridiculous that no

729
00:31:13,130 --> 00:31:11,159
one could possibly believe it these

730
00:31:15,950 --> 00:31:13,140
things don't exist and yet there they

731
00:31:17,810 --> 00:31:15,960
are yeah I mean there's there's I think

732
00:31:20,810 --> 00:31:17,820
Jacques Vale coined this term there's a

733
00:31:23,510 --> 00:31:20,820
love level of absurdity associated with

734
00:31:26,269 --> 00:31:23,520
the with these kinds of reports and

735
00:31:27,710 --> 00:31:26,279
sightings that you know you know that if

736
00:31:29,510 --> 00:31:27,720
you report this kind of stuff you're

737
00:31:31,850 --> 00:31:29,520
going to be ridiculed

738
00:31:36,529 --> 00:31:31,860
um but the fact is during the OSAP

739
00:31:39,769 --> 00:31:36,539
program we did start investigating uh

740
00:31:42,350 --> 00:31:39,779
activity with these uh sightings around

741
00:31:45,049 --> 00:31:42,360
the the ranch all of the neighbors and

742
00:31:46,490 --> 00:31:45,059
within a two mile radius or so we

743
00:31:49,789 --> 00:31:46,500
interviewed a lot of different people

744
00:31:54,010 --> 00:31:49,799
and we accumulated a ridiculous number

745
00:31:56,930 --> 00:31:54,020
of anecdotal stories of people reporting

746
00:32:00,649 --> 00:31:56,940
creatures everything from these kind of

747
00:32:03,409 --> 00:32:00,659
item the the Gargoyles that are on top

748
00:32:06,110 --> 00:32:03,419
of Notre Dame cathedral in Paris you

749
00:32:08,389 --> 00:32:06,120
know sort of these types of of creatures

750
00:32:12,470 --> 00:32:08,399
that were seen within a mile of the

751
00:32:16,610 --> 00:32:12,480
ranch we also had sort of various

752
00:32:18,649 --> 00:32:16,620
um iterations of two leg or four-legged

753
00:32:21,289 --> 00:32:18,659
creatures that were walking on two legs

754
00:32:24,350 --> 00:32:21,299
that are anatomically impossible for

755
00:32:27,470 --> 00:32:24,360
these kinds of wolves or coyotes to be

756
00:32:30,350 --> 00:32:27,480
able to walk on on two legs we had many

757
00:32:32,450 --> 00:32:30,360
many stories of of those so what we

758
00:32:35,149 --> 00:32:32,460
actually did towards the end of the ASAP

759
00:32:38,389 --> 00:32:35,159
program was that we we constructed a

760
00:32:41,210 --> 00:32:38,399
Google map version of the Skinwalker

761
00:32:44,570 --> 00:32:41,220
Ranch and we overlaid all of the

762
00:32:46,430 --> 00:32:44,580
eyewitness locations who had seen these

763
00:32:49,310 --> 00:32:46,440
and we're talking dozens of different

764
00:32:52,549 --> 00:32:49,320
people who had seen these uh creatures

765
00:32:55,610 --> 00:32:52,559
and so then we we asked part of the

766
00:32:57,769 --> 00:32:55,620
interview process was was we asked what

767
00:33:01,250 --> 00:32:57,779
direction these creatures were moving

768
00:33:03,970 --> 00:33:01,260
when they were seen and we mapped all of

769
00:33:06,830 --> 00:33:03,980
that stuff on a Google map

770
00:33:10,490 --> 00:33:06,840
and we looked at it and lo and behold

771
00:33:12,710 --> 00:33:10,500
there was a very striking pattern all of

772
00:33:15,169 --> 00:33:12,720
these creatures were starting off in the

773
00:33:17,090 --> 00:33:15,179
Southeast and they were moving in a

774
00:33:19,730 --> 00:33:17,100
northwesterly Direction

775
00:33:21,889 --> 00:33:19,740
so you could see on the Google Map a

776
00:33:23,870 --> 00:33:21,899
series of lines that crisscrossed the

777
00:33:25,970 --> 00:33:23,880
ranch but they were all moving from

778
00:33:29,450 --> 00:33:25,980
Southeast to Northwest

779
00:33:31,430 --> 00:33:29,460
there's a story that that we told in the

780
00:33:33,110 --> 00:33:31,440
hunt for the skinwalker and Colin and I

781
00:33:35,090 --> 00:33:33,120
debated about it geez do we include this

782
00:33:37,190 --> 00:33:35,100
one because it's pretty crazy it was uh

783
00:33:39,710 --> 00:33:37,200
the these the witnesses or police

784
00:33:41,389 --> 00:33:39,720
officers they're cops uh in Tribal

785
00:33:44,870 --> 00:33:41,399
Police right and they come around a

786
00:33:47,990 --> 00:33:44,880
corner yeah at night uh up on the the

787
00:33:49,789 --> 00:33:48,000
paved Road up or near the the dirt road

788
00:33:52,009 --> 00:33:49,799
that you take into the ranch and they

789
00:33:55,009 --> 00:33:52,019
see these figures standing in trench

790
00:33:57,710 --> 00:33:55,019
coats smoking cigarettes and they shine

791
00:34:00,049 --> 00:33:57,720
a light on them and they're dogs and we

792
00:34:02,330 --> 00:34:00,059
had to debate do we do we put this in

793
00:34:04,669 --> 00:34:02,340
that these two dogs are smoking

794
00:34:06,169 --> 00:34:04,679
cigarettes we figured well what the heck

795
00:34:08,210 --> 00:34:06,179
does just throw it throw it out there

796
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:08,220
look I mean yeah you guys get so much

797
00:34:12,589 --> 00:34:10,800
for that for including what you're

798
00:34:14,690 --> 00:34:12,599
told by the law enforcement there and I

799
00:34:16,369 --> 00:34:14,700
I've also experienced like when we

800
00:34:18,889 --> 00:34:16,379
earned the trust and we're allowed to be

801
00:34:20,510 --> 00:34:18,899
the first to film with certain uh youth

802
00:34:22,430 --> 00:34:20,520
tribe members and law enforcement

803
00:34:24,409 --> 00:34:22,440
members some off camera some on camera

804
00:34:27,530 --> 00:34:24,419
there's a big difference of someone just

805
00:34:29,690 --> 00:34:27,540
telling you a tall tale and then just

806
00:34:32,089 --> 00:34:29,700
seeing the fear in their eyes and

807
00:34:34,369 --> 00:34:32,099
hearing what happened to them after that

808
00:34:35,990 --> 00:34:34,379
event and and the impact it had on their

809
00:34:37,730 --> 00:34:36,000
families they're they're telling you as

810
00:34:40,609 --> 00:34:37,740
serious as a heart attack I'm just

811
00:34:44,030 --> 00:34:40,619
taking the stance of like even I have an

812
00:34:46,250 --> 00:34:44,040
allergy to these stories someone tells

813
00:34:49,490 --> 00:34:46,260
you something fine I'm just saying that

814
00:34:51,829 --> 00:34:49,500
that's what happens it's too big it's

815
00:34:52,970 --> 00:34:51,839
too outrageous I'm glad you did put in

816
00:34:55,070 --> 00:34:52,980
the book you're reporting the news

817
00:34:56,510 --> 00:34:55,080
that's what you're supposed to do but

818
00:35:00,349 --> 00:34:56,520
you you

819
00:35:02,089 --> 00:35:00,359
actually saw in a tree I mean you had a

820
00:35:03,890 --> 00:35:02,099
personal experience and I know you and I

821
00:35:05,990 --> 00:35:03,900
know the way your mind works and I know

822
00:35:07,790 --> 00:35:06,000
that there's there how serious is you

823
00:35:08,690 --> 00:35:07,800
some of your responsibilities are you're

824
00:35:11,390 --> 00:35:08,700
going to tell you're going to shoot me

825
00:35:14,270 --> 00:35:11,400
straight but so when when Colin when you

826
00:35:17,210 --> 00:35:14,280
tell me what you saw you know and and

827
00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:17,220
then it means more to me because I'm one

828
00:35:21,349 --> 00:35:19,200
degree from somebody that that I know

829
00:35:23,329 --> 00:35:21,359
and trust and go have a beer with so I'm

830
00:35:25,550 --> 00:35:23,339
just saying it yeah you know what we

831
00:35:26,990 --> 00:35:25,560
hear uh no I've seen it a bunch of times

832
00:35:28,790 --> 00:35:27,000
if you don't have a photo it didn't

833
00:35:30,650 --> 00:35:28,800
happen well you know how it would work

834
00:35:33,230 --> 00:35:30,660
is if you did have a photo the photo is

835
00:35:35,390 --> 00:35:33,240
not real but uh you know whatever the

836
00:35:36,530 --> 00:35:35,400
level of evidence is it wouldn't ever be

837
00:35:38,450 --> 00:35:36,540
enough for people who don't want to

838
00:35:40,970 --> 00:35:38,460
believe it but as you said some of it

839
00:35:42,589 --> 00:35:40,980
seems to be ridiculous by Design so

840
00:35:46,010 --> 00:35:42,599
Preposterous that nobody could believe

841
00:35:47,150 --> 00:35:46,020
it and it it's so imaginative but um you

842
00:35:49,130 --> 00:35:47,160
know

843
00:35:51,109 --> 00:35:49,140
bottle Hollow for example we haven't

844
00:35:52,310 --> 00:35:51,119
talked about that on any podcasts or

845
00:35:54,109 --> 00:35:52,320
interviews that you and I have done but

846
00:35:56,450 --> 00:35:54,119
we we did include a little bit of it in

847
00:35:58,490 --> 00:35:56,460
your film Jeremy bottle Hollow is not

848
00:36:01,609 --> 00:35:58,500
Loch Ness it's not thousands of years

849
00:36:04,130 --> 00:36:01,619
old it's a it's a reservoir created less

850
00:36:06,349 --> 00:36:04,140
than 200 years ago and yet it's got

851
00:36:09,230 --> 00:36:06,359
stories of creatures that sound much

852
00:36:10,849 --> 00:36:09,240
like the creatures you'd see in lakes

853
00:36:14,510 --> 00:36:10,859
around the world that are much much

854
00:36:15,829 --> 00:36:14,520
older not only creatures but lights and

855
00:36:17,930 --> 00:36:15,839
things that come out of the sky you and

856
00:36:19,849 --> 00:36:17,940
I interviewed some some witnesses right

857
00:36:22,430 --> 00:36:19,859
on the on the shores of bottle Hollow

858
00:36:25,010 --> 00:36:22,440
what do you make of that yeah I mean

859
00:36:27,650 --> 00:36:25,020
that that as you say that this is not

860
00:36:30,230 --> 00:36:27,660
sort of thousands of years old but it's

861
00:36:33,470 --> 00:36:30,240
also happens to be right beside the skin

862
00:36:36,050 --> 00:36:33,480
marker wrench and within almost shouting

863
00:36:36,950 --> 00:36:36,060
distance of skin walk around so

864
00:36:39,710 --> 00:36:36,960
um

865
00:36:42,290 --> 00:36:39,720
all of the interviews that we did are

866
00:36:44,750 --> 00:36:42,300
consistent with this sort of

867
00:36:47,810 --> 00:36:44,760
um skin marker wrench is not anything

868
00:36:50,950 --> 00:36:47,820
exceptional it just happens to have been

869
00:36:56,089 --> 00:36:50,960
studied intensively since

870
00:36:59,630 --> 00:36:56,099
1994 or slash 1996 but you know all of

871
00:37:03,250 --> 00:36:59,640
the all of the areas around Skinwalker

872
00:37:07,310 --> 00:37:03,260
Ranch are privy to this

873
00:37:10,010 --> 00:37:07,320
absurd a level of activity that includes

874
00:37:12,890 --> 00:37:10,020
a paranormal phenomena includes

875
00:37:16,210 --> 00:37:12,900
Poltergeist phenomena and also includes

876
00:37:19,370 --> 00:37:16,220
metallic objects that seem seem to be

877
00:37:21,589 --> 00:37:19,380
co-located and are appearing and

878
00:37:24,790 --> 00:37:21,599
disappearing at the same time now the

879
00:37:28,010 --> 00:37:24,800
question are is are these completely

880
00:37:31,250 --> 00:37:28,020
unrelated phenomena or should they not

881
00:37:32,349 --> 00:37:31,260
be reported alongside these creature

882
00:37:35,150 --> 00:37:32,359
type type

883
00:37:38,030 --> 00:37:35,160
activities should they not be reported

884
00:37:42,130 --> 00:37:38,040
alongside the metallic objects that are

885
00:37:44,990 --> 00:37:42,140
seen and reported or should all of this

886
00:37:47,210 --> 00:37:45,000
all of these phenomena be reported I

887
00:37:49,550 --> 00:37:47,220
mean that's kind of the central question

888
00:37:51,829 --> 00:37:49,560
that preoccupies people and it's

889
00:37:54,890 --> 00:37:51,839
certainly preoccupied us when we were

890
00:37:57,170 --> 00:37:54,900
initiating the OSAP program because we

891
00:38:00,589 --> 00:37:57,180
knew we would run into this this

892
00:38:02,569 --> 00:38:00,599
discrepancy between what is acceptable

893
00:38:05,089 --> 00:38:02,579
versus what what is not acceptable right

894
00:38:06,829 --> 00:38:05,099
now Guts and Bolts UFO compared right so

895
00:38:08,630 --> 00:38:06,839
of course you should report everything

896
00:38:10,790 --> 00:38:08,640
what you're talking about is you have

897
00:38:13,010 --> 00:38:10,800
this Dia government program to look at

898
00:38:15,230 --> 00:38:13,020
high-end technology Maybe by Foreign

899
00:38:17,030 --> 00:38:15,240
adversary should we tell them that a lot

900
00:38:18,770 --> 00:38:17,040
of this is associated with these

901
00:38:20,390 --> 00:38:18,780
absolutely bizarre things that's the

902
00:38:21,829 --> 00:38:20,400
discrepancy as reporters we're going to

903
00:38:23,870 --> 00:38:21,839
report the news like you did about the

904
00:38:26,810 --> 00:38:23,880
the story from the cops of the smoking

905
00:38:29,690 --> 00:38:26,820
dog that whole thing but you know this

906
00:38:33,470 --> 00:38:29,700
idea that the entire you into base and

907
00:38:35,630 --> 00:38:33,480
is homogeneously having these

908
00:38:38,030 --> 00:38:35,640
experiences and it's not just a cultural

909
00:38:40,910 --> 00:38:38,040
thing from from a different generation

910
00:38:42,829 --> 00:38:40,920
that was what's so interesting to me you

911
00:38:45,470 --> 00:38:42,839
bring people into that area who are like

912
00:38:47,329 --> 00:38:45,480
you science scientists and you bring

913
00:38:50,150 --> 00:38:47,339
every kind of person from every kind of

914
00:38:52,790 --> 00:38:50,160
culture given enough time not one day on

915
00:38:54,890 --> 00:38:52,800
the ranch not two days hundreds and

916
00:38:58,550 --> 00:38:54,900
hundreds of 24-hour surveillance days

917
00:39:00,170 --> 00:38:58,560
under unique circumstances bam it's not

918
00:39:01,730 --> 00:39:00,180
a cultural thing in that area that

919
00:39:03,890 --> 00:39:01,740
really dawned on me when we did a bunch

920
00:39:06,890 --> 00:39:03,900
of our interviews you know so so that's

921
00:39:09,650 --> 00:39:06,900
interesting I don't get why this one

922
00:39:12,650 --> 00:39:09,660
area although there's others why an area

923
00:39:14,750 --> 00:39:12,660
would have more of this unless it's some

924
00:39:16,910 --> 00:39:14,760
Advanced uh technology from a nation

925
00:39:19,490 --> 00:39:16,920
that wants to like try out the beta test

926
00:39:21,290 --> 00:39:19,500
their stuff or even our own why this

927
00:39:22,910 --> 00:39:21,300
area there's no answer to that right

928
00:39:25,849 --> 00:39:22,920
that we know of

929
00:39:27,349 --> 00:39:25,859
um all of the the different hot spots

930
00:39:29,930 --> 00:39:27,359
around the United States and around

931
00:39:31,130 --> 00:39:29,940
Europe and in different there's really

932
00:39:34,490 --> 00:39:31,140
no

933
00:39:36,050 --> 00:39:34,500
obvious explanation of why these hot

934
00:39:38,990 --> 00:39:36,060
spots

935
00:39:41,930 --> 00:39:39,000
um exist but they are they definitely

936
00:39:43,550 --> 00:39:41,940
exist uh the Uinta Basin is is the

937
00:39:45,470 --> 00:39:43,560
obvious example we've got another one

938
00:39:48,650 --> 00:39:45,480
we've spent a lot of time in Dulce in

939
00:39:51,170 --> 00:39:48,660
New Mexico the overlap between the sort

940
00:39:52,990 --> 00:39:51,180
of bizarre

941
00:39:56,329 --> 00:39:53,000
um you know

942
00:39:58,970 --> 00:39:56,339
nutsibles craft and then bizarre

943
00:40:02,569 --> 00:39:58,980
creatures is the same in Northern New

944
00:40:04,490 --> 00:40:02,579
Mexico as it was or in the Uinta Basin I

945
00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:04,500
think the all of the legends that came

946
00:40:08,569 --> 00:40:06,000
out of the San Luis Valley in Colorado

947
00:40:11,329 --> 00:40:08,579
for example that Chris O'Brien and

948
00:40:13,130 --> 00:40:11,339
others have reported on you've got sort

949
00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:13,140
of the black triangle phenomenon you've

950
00:40:20,089 --> 00:40:16,560
got various UFOs metallic objects

951
00:40:23,089 --> 00:40:20,099
overlaid exactly with Bigfoot and with a

952
00:40:26,329 --> 00:40:23,099
lot of different anomalies and uh

953
00:40:28,910 --> 00:40:26,339
paranormal effects so you know Jacques

954
00:40:32,450 --> 00:40:28,920
Vale coined this term that the hilltop

955
00:40:36,530 --> 00:40:32,460
effect you know that that if you go in

956
00:40:38,690 --> 00:40:36,540
to investigate a UFO phenomenon you the

957
00:40:41,510 --> 00:40:38,700
first layer of interviewing of the

958
00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:41,520
witnesses you get all of the uh all of

959
00:40:47,089 --> 00:40:45,359
the reports about The anecdotal sort of

960
00:40:49,069 --> 00:40:47,099
metallic craft that appeared and

961
00:40:51,770 --> 00:40:49,079
disappeared it did right angle turns of

962
00:40:55,130 --> 00:40:51,780
the sky it was it was flashing bright

963
00:40:57,950 --> 00:40:55,140
red and bright bright blue colors that

964
00:41:00,410 --> 00:40:57,960
kind of thing but you know his his whole

965
00:41:04,190 --> 00:41:00,420
thing was that if you keep on going back

966
00:41:07,069 --> 00:41:04,200
Time After Time After Time the witnesses

967
00:41:09,770 --> 00:41:07,079
start trusting you and when they start

968
00:41:11,329 --> 00:41:09,780
trusting you they start opening up tell

969
00:41:13,490 --> 00:41:11,339
you the rest of this and then they start

970
00:41:15,650 --> 00:41:13,500
talking about the weird stuff that they

971
00:41:19,490 --> 00:41:15,660
wouldn't dream of of telling a stranger

972
00:41:22,430 --> 00:41:19,500
so if got a lot of these investigations

973
00:41:25,370 --> 00:41:22,440
that happen and you've only got the left

974
00:41:28,190 --> 00:41:25,380
hand part of the the hilltop curve

975
00:41:31,430 --> 00:41:28,200
and it's kind of like this gaussian uh

976
00:41:34,730 --> 00:41:31,440
curve that is as as you go further and

977
00:41:38,150 --> 00:41:34,740
further uh you've got a lot of activity

978
00:41:42,290 --> 00:41:38,160
a lot of reports but the weirder things

979
00:41:45,230 --> 00:41:42,300
become uh the less reporting happens or

980
00:41:47,329 --> 00:41:45,240
yeah people come to us all the time very

981
00:41:49,370 --> 00:41:47,339
serious people that work in you know

982
00:41:50,930 --> 00:41:49,380
really uh you know secure jobs right

983
00:41:53,569 --> 00:41:50,940
security jobs that kind of thing for our

984
00:41:56,450 --> 00:41:53,579
nation and they'll be like just want you

985
00:41:59,150 --> 00:41:56,460
to know and it is a nuts and bolts story

986
00:42:01,730 --> 00:41:59,160
an explanation

987
00:42:03,170 --> 00:42:01,740
just nuts and bolts from a very serious

988
00:42:04,730 --> 00:42:03,180
Engineers that kind of thing just using

989
00:42:08,329 --> 00:42:04,740
an example

990
00:42:09,829 --> 00:42:08,339
after a couple weeks maybe a month

991
00:42:12,109 --> 00:42:09,839
it'll be like

992
00:42:15,109 --> 00:42:12,119
there's one other thing I I don't know

993
00:42:17,210 --> 00:42:15,119
if it's Associated specifically with

994
00:42:19,490 --> 00:42:17,220
what I told you I saw that I know for

995
00:42:23,150 --> 00:42:19,500
sure is right and then I'm like here it

996
00:42:26,450 --> 00:42:23,160
comes there's there's often times this

997
00:42:29,569 --> 00:42:26,460
other element to it that transcends the

998
00:42:32,810 --> 00:42:29,579
physical nuts and bolts aspect of UFOs

999
00:42:34,910 --> 00:42:32,820
maybe it's a Consciousness effect maybe

1000
00:42:36,950 --> 00:42:34,920
it's I don't know what to name it I

1001
00:42:39,050 --> 00:42:36,960
can't deny that that is often Associated

1002
00:42:41,150 --> 00:42:39,060
not always at all not always right but

1003
00:42:42,770 --> 00:42:41,160
it's a lot a lot and it's there and it's

1004
00:42:44,870 --> 00:42:42,780
in your face sometimes it goes the heart

1005
00:42:47,089 --> 00:42:44,880
of what OSAP was supposed to be and

1006
00:42:48,950 --> 00:42:47,099
people who only have read a little bit

1007
00:42:51,349 --> 00:42:48,960
about it who thinks they're experts say

1008
00:42:53,510 --> 00:42:51,359
the ones who will say it was supposed to

1009
00:42:55,670 --> 00:42:53,520
be a UFO program or the ones who

1010
00:42:57,829 --> 00:42:55,680
criticize there's no language about UFOs

1011
00:42:59,930 --> 00:42:57,839
in any of the documents and you did that

1012
00:43:01,550 --> 00:42:59,940
on purpose and then those who will say

1013
00:43:03,230 --> 00:43:01,560
it was killed because it looked at all

1014
00:43:05,870 --> 00:43:03,240
this crazy weird stuff

1015
00:43:07,490 --> 00:43:05,880
the fact is you are never going to solve

1016
00:43:08,630 --> 00:43:07,500
this mystery without including the weird

1017
00:43:10,250 --> 00:43:08,640
stuff you're talking about the hilltop

1018
00:43:12,410 --> 00:43:10,260
effect right I wanted you to continue

1019
00:43:14,690 --> 00:43:12,420
your metaphor there about why that works

1020
00:43:17,450 --> 00:43:14,700
if you only look at the hilltops you

1021
00:43:19,490 --> 00:43:17,460
don't look at all I mean it it it's it

1022
00:43:22,010 --> 00:43:19,500
is like

1023
00:43:26,210 --> 00:43:22,020
um imagine that you're starting off on

1024
00:43:30,109 --> 00:43:26,220
uh on on a new program to map out the

1025
00:43:32,809 --> 00:43:30,119
topography of of an unknown you know

1026
00:43:35,630 --> 00:43:32,819
area that has never been met before

1027
00:43:37,910 --> 00:43:35,640
and sort of you assemble a team to start

1028
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:37,920
doing that whole process of mapping it

1029
00:43:42,710 --> 00:43:40,560
out and then you've got some guy from

1030
00:43:46,130 --> 00:43:42,720
the back of the who's probably

1031
00:43:47,569 --> 00:43:46,140
associated with usdi office of you under

1032
00:43:50,630 --> 00:43:47,579
secretary of defense for intelligence

1033
00:43:52,910 --> 00:43:50,640
who suddenly pipes up and say okay we're

1034
00:43:55,309 --> 00:43:52,920
only going to look at

1035
00:43:57,290 --> 00:43:55,319
the tops of the mountains

1036
00:43:59,809 --> 00:43:57,300
or the hills because that's what's used

1037
00:44:02,150 --> 00:43:59,819
because in his mind well that's it this

1038
00:44:05,050 --> 00:44:02,160
is this is only uh the Department of

1039
00:44:07,370 --> 00:44:05,060
Defense only remit is to look at the

1040
00:44:08,690 --> 00:44:07,380
mountaintops we're going to ignore the

1041
00:44:10,670 --> 00:44:08,700
sides of the mountains we're going to

1042
00:44:12,890 --> 00:44:10,680
ignore the Canyons we're going to ignore

1043
00:44:15,290 --> 00:44:12,900
the valleys because that's outside the

1044
00:44:17,089 --> 00:44:15,300
remit of the Department of Defense the

1045
00:44:20,210 --> 00:44:17,099
only thing the Department of Defense is

1046
00:44:23,089 --> 00:44:20,220
interested in is in the mountaintops and

1047
00:44:25,690 --> 00:44:23,099
so this program then proceeds to spend

1048
00:44:28,490 --> 00:44:25,700
enormous amounts of time and energy

1049
00:44:30,650 --> 00:44:28,500
analyzing the mountaintops and then

1050
00:44:34,370 --> 00:44:30,660
suddenly uh

1051
00:44:37,970 --> 00:44:34,380
were were put into a war situation where

1052
00:44:41,089 --> 00:44:37,980
we have to encounter this

1053
00:44:43,550 --> 00:44:41,099
um this topography and we have no idea

1054
00:44:45,170 --> 00:44:43,560
of what the sides of the mountains look

1055
00:44:46,730 --> 00:44:45,180
like we have no idea what the Canyons

1056
00:44:48,230 --> 00:44:46,740
look like we have no idea what the

1057
00:44:49,730 --> 00:44:48,240
values look like because all you study

1058
00:44:51,530 --> 00:44:49,740
was the middle because the only thing we

1059
00:44:54,829 --> 00:44:51,540
know anything about is the mountaintops

1060
00:44:58,490 --> 00:44:54,839
so I'm using this as a metaphor for the

1061
00:45:00,770 --> 00:44:58,500
sort of the the tendency to lock away

1062
00:45:03,349 --> 00:45:00,780
um you know what OSAP originally was

1063
00:45:07,069 --> 00:45:03,359
going to be studying which would be only

1064
00:45:09,950 --> 00:45:07,079
sensor driven data and only sort of the

1065
00:45:12,109 --> 00:45:09,960
metallic craft you're missing

1066
00:45:15,470 --> 00:45:12,119
um you're missing the great underbelly

1067
00:45:18,349 --> 00:45:15,480
of what actually may be important to

1068
00:45:21,349 --> 00:45:18,359
study and so you know it's a metaphor

1069
00:45:24,710 --> 00:45:21,359
that that could be used but it's

1070
00:45:28,550 --> 00:45:24,720
certainly during the OSAP program

1071
00:45:32,089 --> 00:45:28,560
we discussed many many times and long

1072
00:45:34,550 --> 00:45:32,099
and long discussions between the defense

1073
00:45:38,990 --> 00:45:34,560
intelligence agency and the OSAP people

1074
00:45:41,990 --> 00:45:39,000
in Las Vegas and the intent was to leave

1075
00:45:46,250 --> 00:45:42,000
no stone unturned that we would database

1076
00:45:48,710 --> 00:45:46,260
everything that we came across and then

1077
00:45:51,109 --> 00:45:48,720
we would decide to include or not

1078
00:45:54,109 --> 00:45:51,119
include it later after a sufficient

1079
00:45:56,630 --> 00:45:54,119
analysis had been done to decide okay

1080
00:45:58,730 --> 00:45:56,640
these are probably separate phenomena

1081
00:46:01,670 --> 00:45:58,740
let's eliminate these from the the

1082
00:46:04,670 --> 00:46:01,680
database but we don't just go in and

1083
00:46:07,069 --> 00:46:04,680
focus only on the nuts and bolts

1084
00:46:10,309 --> 00:46:07,079
phenomena and to the exclusion of

1085
00:46:13,069 --> 00:46:10,319
everything else because we don't know if

1086
00:46:15,589 --> 00:46:13,079
that all of that sort of weird extra

1087
00:46:17,210 --> 00:46:15,599
stuff is associated with the phenomena

1088
00:46:19,609 --> 00:46:17,220
we don't have enough data to make that

1089
00:46:21,470 --> 00:46:19,619
judgment I should point out there's a

1090
00:46:23,390 --> 00:46:21,480
story that you shared with some other

1091
00:46:26,089 --> 00:46:23,400
people about Kenneth Arnold so it's been

1092
00:46:28,670 --> 00:46:26,099
75 years since Kenneth Arnold's citing

1093
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:28,680
started the modern UFO era and people

1094
00:46:32,450 --> 00:46:31,200
they remember the Flying Saucer part of

1095
00:46:34,670 --> 00:46:32,460
it even though that's not what he

1096
00:46:36,829 --> 00:46:34,680
described but the the nuts and bolts

1097
00:46:39,410 --> 00:46:36,839
craft that he supposedly saw and nothing

1098
00:46:41,450 --> 00:46:39,420
else but High strange business goes back

1099
00:46:43,490 --> 00:46:41,460
to the beginning of the modern UFO era

1100
00:46:46,010 --> 00:46:43,500
it's you can't just have a UFO incident

1101
00:46:47,990 --> 00:46:46,020
by itself there's often a lot of other

1102
00:46:49,250 --> 00:46:48,000
stuff including his case right yeah

1103
00:46:52,550 --> 00:46:49,260
because

1104
00:46:55,370 --> 00:46:52,560
um I remember several several years ago

1105
00:46:58,250 --> 00:46:55,380
Kenner Kenneth Arnold's daughter Kim

1106
00:46:59,990 --> 00:46:58,260
Arnold uh began writing a book and she

1107
00:47:02,809 --> 00:47:00,000
started putting out

1108
00:47:05,030 --> 00:47:02,819
um feelers she went on radio shows so

1109
00:47:08,150 --> 00:47:05,040
Kenneth Arnold it's one of the most

1110
00:47:10,490 --> 00:47:08,160
famous UFO cases of all time because it

1111
00:47:13,550 --> 00:47:10,500
was said to have coined the Flying

1112
00:47:15,589 --> 00:47:13,560
Saucer term June of 1947. however that's

1113
00:47:17,630 --> 00:47:15,599
not how he described the craft it was

1114
00:47:20,630 --> 00:47:17,640
just a reporter like two sauces on top

1115
00:47:22,370 --> 00:47:20,640
what he was saying is it skipped like

1116
00:47:23,809 --> 00:47:22,380
that so like as if you threw a saucer

1117
00:47:25,370 --> 00:47:23,819
that's just so everybody knows the

1118
00:47:27,530 --> 00:47:25,380
Kenneth Arnold story that's how the term

1119
00:47:29,569 --> 00:47:27,540
Flying Saucer right saucers have been

1120
00:47:31,730 --> 00:47:29,579
seen for a long time prior to that and

1121
00:47:35,089 --> 00:47:31,740
that's not what he saw but go on correct

1122
00:47:37,790 --> 00:47:35,099
so Kim so Kim Arnold described something

1123
00:47:40,849 --> 00:47:37,800
very very different that what what her

1124
00:47:43,750 --> 00:47:40,859
father you know had had experienced

1125
00:47:46,250 --> 00:47:43,760
number one you know

1126
00:47:49,730 --> 00:47:46,260
Kenneth Arnold's original description

1127
00:47:52,910 --> 00:47:49,740
was that these brightly these objects

1128
00:47:55,130 --> 00:47:52,920
were were reflecting the sunlight as

1129
00:47:57,589 --> 00:47:55,140
they moved down the Cascade Mountains as

1130
00:48:01,730 --> 00:47:57,599
they were going from north to south

1131
00:48:04,550 --> 00:48:01,740
um what Kim Arnold put out was that

1132
00:48:07,730 --> 00:48:04,560
after a lot of thought Kenneth Arnold

1133
00:48:10,849 --> 00:48:07,740
decided that these objects were actually

1134
00:48:13,609 --> 00:48:10,859
a emanating light self-luminous they

1135
00:48:16,670 --> 00:48:13,619
were they were pulsating these

1136
00:48:18,890 --> 00:48:16,680
um he called them bluish white light

1137
00:48:21,230 --> 00:48:18,900
um these were not reflecting sunlight so

1138
00:48:24,829 --> 00:48:21,240
these things were were actually pulsing

1139
00:48:27,230 --> 00:48:24,839
light secondly uh Kim Arnold reported

1140
00:48:29,809 --> 00:48:27,240
that um they started having these

1141
00:48:33,290 --> 00:48:29,819
inexplicable paranormal effects in their

1142
00:48:36,230 --> 00:48:33,300
home Kenneth Arnold after his sighting I

1143
00:48:38,270 --> 00:48:36,240
mean she described one an orb that sort

1144
00:48:41,329 --> 00:48:38,280
of suddenly appeared in their home and

1145
00:48:43,309 --> 00:48:41,339
went past the two daughters Kim and her

1146
00:48:46,190 --> 00:48:43,319
sister and then went down into the

1147
00:48:47,569 --> 00:48:46,200
kitchen past Kenneth in in the in the in

1148
00:48:50,930 --> 00:48:47,579
their home

1149
00:48:54,410 --> 00:48:50,940
um also weird noises and sort of

1150
00:48:56,210 --> 00:48:54,420
um some Poltergeist uh activity she also

1151
00:48:59,030 --> 00:48:56,220
described that Kenneth Arnold had

1152
00:49:01,190 --> 00:48:59,040
changed his mind about what these

1153
00:49:04,609 --> 00:49:01,200
objects that he had Originals originally

1154
00:49:06,290 --> 00:49:04,619
seen and she described things like he

1155
00:49:07,730 --> 00:49:06,300
thought that they might have some sort

1156
00:49:11,089 --> 00:49:07,740
of biological

1157
00:49:14,270 --> 00:49:11,099
uh content and they might be alive he

1158
00:49:16,670 --> 00:49:14,280
also associated with these objects with

1159
00:49:19,069 --> 00:49:16,680
somehow being associated with with

1160
00:49:23,569 --> 00:49:19,079
humans after they die in you know the

1161
00:49:27,710 --> 00:49:23,579
afterlife so there was a a a lot of very

1162
00:49:30,650 --> 00:49:27,720
weird act you know activity associated

1163
00:49:32,870 --> 00:49:30,660
with the original nuts and bolts Kenneth

1164
00:49:35,390 --> 00:49:32,880
Arnold story that nobody heard about for

1165
00:49:39,589 --> 00:49:35,400
decades and the sort of the whole sort

1166
00:49:41,750 --> 00:49:39,599
of Flying Saucer meme took a hold in the

1167
00:49:44,569 --> 00:49:41,760
in the Press both in the United States

1168
00:49:47,690 --> 00:49:44,579
and globally and suddenly we had all

1169
00:49:50,510 --> 00:49:47,700
these nuts and bolts phenomena being

1170
00:49:53,569 --> 00:49:50,520
described as flying saucers even though

1171
00:49:56,270 --> 00:49:53,579
Kenneth Arnold never had any intent on

1172
00:49:58,970 --> 00:49:56,280
reporting flying saucers but all of the

1173
00:50:01,130 --> 00:49:58,980
Paranormal stuff was completely ignored

1174
00:50:03,589 --> 00:50:01,140
and you know I've speculated to myself

1175
00:50:05,329 --> 00:50:03,599
and to others that what would have

1176
00:50:07,609 --> 00:50:05,339
happened if Kenneth Arnold had come

1177
00:50:10,250 --> 00:50:07,619
right out and said you know these

1178
00:50:12,609 --> 00:50:10,260
objects were Pro may have been

1179
00:50:15,829 --> 00:50:12,619
biological they were probably

1180
00:50:18,890 --> 00:50:15,839
self-luminous they were emanating these

1181
00:50:20,930 --> 00:50:18,900
sort of flashes of light uh may have

1182
00:50:24,050 --> 00:50:20,940
been biological may have been associated

1183
00:50:26,930 --> 00:50:24,060
with the afterlife quote-unquote

1184
00:50:29,530 --> 00:50:26,940
can you imagine what the legend of UFOs

1185
00:50:32,450 --> 00:50:29,540
would look like now if that had been

1186
00:50:35,150 --> 00:50:32,460
promulgated with a lot of force in the

1187
00:50:36,770 --> 00:50:35,160
media in the in the late 1940s nobody

1188
00:50:38,809 --> 00:50:36,780
nobody it would it would be totally

1189
00:50:41,569 --> 00:50:38,819
different in the sense that that is so

1190
00:50:44,569 --> 00:50:41,579
far beyond yeah what a human being is

1191
00:50:45,650 --> 00:50:44,579
ready to hear that it's like there it

1192
00:50:46,970 --> 00:50:45,660
would be completely different because we

1193
00:50:49,069 --> 00:50:46,980
wouldn't have heard about it in the same

1194
00:50:50,870 --> 00:50:49,079
way you've got this hardcore pilot he

1195
00:50:52,250 --> 00:50:50,880
sees craft I could see him thinking oh

1196
00:50:53,930 --> 00:50:52,260
it's glinting because that's the natural

1197
00:50:56,089 --> 00:50:53,940
thing you think that's the right Source

1198
00:50:57,890 --> 00:50:56,099
the Sun but after some thought it didn't

1199
00:51:00,890 --> 00:50:57,900
quite look like that high so I can see

1200
00:51:02,450 --> 00:51:00,900
that transformation going the public nah

1201
00:51:04,010 --> 00:51:02,460
man that's not gonna fly that's too far

1202
00:51:06,290 --> 00:51:04,020
for me it's what we learned at the ranch

1203
00:51:09,349 --> 00:51:06,300
you know the Paradigm when I entered the

1204
00:51:11,150 --> 00:51:09,359
the topic was the standard E.T craft

1205
00:51:13,370 --> 00:51:11,160
from other planets visiting Earth

1206
00:51:15,170 --> 00:51:13,380
checking us out that was the dominant

1207
00:51:17,870 --> 00:51:15,180
Paradigm then it's probably the dominant

1208
00:51:20,390 --> 00:51:17,880
Paradigm now it's the dominant uh sort

1209
00:51:22,250 --> 00:51:20,400
of focus of the new UFO program that

1210
00:51:23,630 --> 00:51:22,260
I'll call it UFOs anymore but they're

1211
00:51:26,270 --> 00:51:23,640
going to study flying saucers they're

1212
00:51:28,730 --> 00:51:26,280
going to study the sensor data lights in

1213
00:51:29,990 --> 00:51:28,740
the sky radar returns and that's going

1214
00:51:32,690 --> 00:51:30,000
to get them to the bottom of the mystery

1215
00:51:34,609 --> 00:51:32,700
when in fact they're only studying the

1216
00:51:37,309 --> 00:51:34,619
Mountaintop there's so much more right

1217
00:51:40,069 --> 00:51:37,319
that that is intrinsically linked to

1218
00:51:42,230 --> 00:51:40,079
this the the overall message that that

1219
00:51:44,930 --> 00:51:42,240
how my attitude changed was from the

1220
00:51:47,690 --> 00:51:44,940
ranch this is way more complicated many

1221
00:51:49,670 --> 00:51:47,700
more wondrous and more interesting and

1222
00:51:52,370 --> 00:51:49,680
mysterious than just lights in the sky

1223
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:52,380
flying around so so because we've gone

1224
00:51:56,750 --> 00:51:54,480
there because we're in the uncomfortable

1225
00:52:00,650 --> 00:51:56,760
territory for me of all of this stuff

1226
00:52:02,750 --> 00:52:00,660
um I I do want you to talk about a term

1227
00:52:05,510 --> 00:52:02,760
that you guys really coined

1228
00:52:08,870 --> 00:52:05,520
um that is so interesting to me because

1229
00:52:11,569 --> 00:52:08,880
of your background in as a scientist you

1230
00:52:14,390 --> 00:52:11,579
know the hitchhiker effect the idea that

1231
00:52:17,270 --> 00:52:14,400
when people have these experiences that

1232
00:52:19,849 --> 00:52:17,280
many report that there's some sort of

1233
00:52:21,770 --> 00:52:19,859
after effect or an effect that follows

1234
00:52:23,990 --> 00:52:21,780
them for some time and we're not just

1235
00:52:27,470 --> 00:52:24,000
talking lore you know talking over a

1236
00:52:30,890 --> 00:52:27,480
campfire we're talking very serious life

1237
00:52:33,230 --> 00:52:30,900
consequences physically and mentally to

1238
00:52:36,890 --> 00:52:33,240
people who are heroic for our country

1239
00:52:39,170 --> 00:52:36,900
and have had problems and and you have

1240
00:52:40,370 --> 00:52:39,180
studied this you know people say you

1241
00:52:43,250 --> 00:52:40,380
know they want to study different things

1242
00:52:45,849 --> 00:52:43,260
about UFOs I'm always call them UFOs UAP

1243
00:52:49,670 --> 00:52:45,859
cool but UFOs just looks cooler so UFOs

1244
00:52:52,309 --> 00:52:49,680
there are trackable traceable biological

1245
00:52:55,490 --> 00:52:52,319
implications to being in close proximity

1246
00:52:58,130 --> 00:52:55,500
to the UAP or UFO

1247
00:53:01,130 --> 00:52:58,140
and you guys did a lot of study that all

1248
00:53:03,470 --> 00:53:01,140
septed extensive study on the biological

1249
00:53:05,510 --> 00:53:03,480
negative even within the brain of human

1250
00:53:08,210 --> 00:53:05,520
beings I don't know if it goes as far as

1251
00:53:10,730 --> 00:53:08,220
into the genetics or DNA but there were

1252
00:53:13,250 --> 00:53:10,740
things you could trace and track that

1253
00:53:15,290 --> 00:53:13,260
you can talk about so The Hitchhiker

1254
00:53:17,510 --> 00:53:15,300
effect break it down for me you guys

1255
00:53:21,109 --> 00:53:17,520
what is that

1256
00:53:23,390 --> 00:53:21,119
well I I guess the poster child for The

1257
00:53:26,329 --> 00:53:23,400
Hitchhiker effect is is the guy we call

1258
00:53:27,589 --> 00:53:26,339
Axelrod and as George has said maybe his

1259
00:53:30,650 --> 00:53:27,599
name is going to change in the next

1260
00:53:32,329 --> 00:53:30,660
while come out is what you mean yeah the

1261
00:53:35,870 --> 00:53:32,339
book is actually right his name is going

1262
00:53:40,730 --> 00:53:35,880
to come out yeah so so I remember

1263
00:53:44,809 --> 00:53:40,740
um sort of being right beside Axelrod on

1264
00:53:47,270 --> 00:53:44,819
the Skinwalker Ranch in July of 2009 I

1265
00:53:49,010 --> 00:53:47,280
was standing right beside him and um you

1266
00:53:51,410 --> 00:53:49,020
know he was talking to his wife and his

1267
00:53:53,870 --> 00:53:51,420
wife was sort of saying that there was

1268
00:53:56,109 --> 00:53:53,880
weird stuff happening in the house I

1269
00:53:58,790 --> 00:53:56,119
mean this was uh right after

1270
00:53:59,990 --> 00:53:58,800
axelrod's experience on the on the

1271
00:54:02,809 --> 00:54:00,000
property but

1272
00:54:04,849 --> 00:54:02,819
to cut a very long story short what what

1273
00:54:07,250 --> 00:54:04,859
what happened was

1274
00:54:09,710 --> 00:54:07,260
um when Axelrod and his two Compadres

1275
00:54:11,990 --> 00:54:09,720
who were on the property they had these

1276
00:54:14,329 --> 00:54:12,000
very intense experiences on the property

1277
00:54:17,170 --> 00:54:14,339
they flew back home to the east coast

1278
00:54:20,270 --> 00:54:17,180
and they went to their their homes and

1279
00:54:21,770 --> 00:54:20,280
axelrod's family started

1280
00:54:24,829 --> 00:54:21,780
um experiencing

1281
00:54:26,930 --> 00:54:24,839
all these paranormal events you know

1282
00:54:29,450 --> 00:54:26,940
their teenage Sons would wake up on

1283
00:54:31,609 --> 00:54:29,460
these black Shadows would be standing

1284
00:54:34,549 --> 00:54:31,619
hovering over their beds sort of in a

1285
00:54:36,230 --> 00:54:34,559
very threatening way they would wake up

1286
00:54:38,930 --> 00:54:36,240
to go to the bathroom and they'd see

1287
00:54:41,150 --> 00:54:38,940
these sort of black objects that would

1288
00:54:43,730 --> 00:54:41,160
be in the hallways that were obviously

1289
00:54:45,650 --> 00:54:43,740
black objects they weren't sort of a

1290
00:54:48,950 --> 00:54:45,660
trick of the light

1291
00:54:51,190 --> 00:54:48,960
and then one night sort of uh after this

1292
00:54:53,690 --> 00:54:51,200
whole thing started erupting

1293
00:54:55,089 --> 00:54:53,700
axelrod's wife was just turning off the

1294
00:54:58,849 --> 00:54:55,099
lights in the kitchen

1295
00:55:01,010 --> 00:54:58,859
that was overlooking their backyard and

1296
00:55:03,650 --> 00:55:01,020
out of the corner of their of her eyes

1297
00:55:07,370 --> 00:55:03,660
she caught a movement down in the in in

1298
00:55:10,670 --> 00:55:07,380
the backyard and she saw this ridiculous

1299
00:55:12,230 --> 00:55:10,680
Mythic semi-mythical creature of a of a

1300
00:55:15,109 --> 00:55:12,240
what looked like a wolf

1301
00:55:17,809 --> 00:55:15,119
standing on its hind legs leaning

1302
00:55:19,970 --> 00:55:17,819
against a tree in the in her backyard

1303
00:55:22,910 --> 00:55:19,980
and she was looking and she looked away

1304
00:55:25,609 --> 00:55:22,920
she looked back it was still there I

1305
00:55:28,609 --> 00:55:25,619
mean it was it was like something out of

1306
00:55:30,950 --> 00:55:28,619
Mythology that she was looking at and

1307
00:55:33,349 --> 00:55:30,960
she I mean she just turned off the light

1308
00:55:35,450 --> 00:55:33,359
and went to bed I mean she was freaked

1309
00:55:38,870 --> 00:55:35,460
out to the extent that she never said

1310
00:55:40,790 --> 00:55:38,880
anything to her family about this so so

1311
00:55:42,710 --> 00:55:40,800
there's just tons of this right tons of

1312
00:55:45,109 --> 00:55:42,720
this idea of a hitchhiker effect that it

1313
00:55:46,849 --> 00:55:45,119
comes and like a virus infects your

1314
00:55:48,530 --> 00:55:46,859
family and loved ones and it follows you

1315
00:55:50,390 --> 00:55:48,540
after like you go to the ranch or

1316
00:55:52,730 --> 00:55:50,400
whatever the bigger picture people

1317
00:55:55,190 --> 00:55:52,740
encounter Close Encounters of UFOs this

1318
00:55:57,410 --> 00:55:55,200
hitchhiker effect okay but like okay

1319
00:55:59,329 --> 00:55:57,420
ghost stories I don't know these people

1320
00:56:01,549 --> 00:55:59,339
I don't believe it let's just say that's

1321
00:56:03,650 --> 00:56:01,559
that's my perspective right right I'm

1322
00:56:07,030 --> 00:56:03,660
like ghost stories cool story don't care

1323
00:56:10,069 --> 00:56:07,040
but you had actually physical traceable

1324
00:56:13,309 --> 00:56:10,079
biological things that could be directly

1325
00:56:15,349 --> 00:56:13,319
linked to these UFO or UAP he encounters

1326
00:56:17,750 --> 00:56:15,359
can you talk about any of that the

1327
00:56:20,349 --> 00:56:17,760
things that well no you can trace yeah

1328
00:56:23,750 --> 00:56:20,359
just to kind of finish off the the the

1329
00:56:26,930 --> 00:56:23,760
that primary kind of example

1330
00:56:30,170 --> 00:56:26,940
um the two sons were were in in the uh

1331
00:56:32,589 --> 00:56:30,180
in the room uh near the backyard on the

1332
00:56:36,589 --> 00:56:32,599
Saturday morning following her sighting

1333
00:56:39,770 --> 00:56:36,599
and uh one of them lucks out and they

1334
00:56:42,770 --> 00:56:39,780
see this upright creature Wolfman wolf

1335
00:56:44,450 --> 00:56:42,780
wolf creature running quickly well

1336
00:56:46,970 --> 00:56:44,460
actually it was standing still looking

1337
00:56:49,910 --> 00:56:46,980
at them in a threatening way and then it

1338
00:56:51,950 --> 00:56:49,920
took off heading for the tree line

1339
00:56:54,230 --> 00:56:51,960
um kicking up leaves as it went and two

1340
00:56:57,230 --> 00:56:54,240
legs on two legs okay anatomically

1341
00:57:00,589 --> 00:56:57,240
impossible so so the uh the whole idea

1342
00:57:02,270 --> 00:57:00,599
that you know a dog I mean you see dogs

1343
00:57:04,430 --> 00:57:02,280
in the circus getting up on their two

1344
00:57:07,329 --> 00:57:04,440
legs and sort of tottering around this

1345
00:57:10,609 --> 00:57:07,339
thing was moving fluidly at speed

1346
00:57:12,109 --> 00:57:10,619
kicking up leaves as it went the family

1347
00:57:14,030 --> 00:57:12,119
went out into the into the yard off

1348
00:57:15,770 --> 00:57:14,040
afterwards and they went over to the

1349
00:57:18,349 --> 00:57:15,780
tree line where they had seen this and

1350
00:57:21,290 --> 00:57:18,359
there were these obvious large claw

1351
00:57:24,410 --> 00:57:21,300
marks on the tree trunk okay so was this

1352
00:57:26,630 --> 00:57:24,420
a sort of a trick of the mind or was

1353
00:57:29,210 --> 00:57:26,640
kicking up the lead intelligence agency

1354
00:57:31,670 --> 00:57:29,220
playing some sort of MK Ultra mind game

1355
00:57:34,609 --> 00:57:31,680
on our intelligence agency folks I mean

1356
00:57:36,829 --> 00:57:34,619
whatever it was it was leaving uh

1357
00:57:38,569 --> 00:57:36,839
physical traces in the environment and

1358
00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:38,579
that that's sort of a key part of this

1359
00:57:44,210 --> 00:57:41,520
whole thing so we studied this this

1360
00:57:46,970 --> 00:57:44,220
so-called hitchhiker effect and it was

1361
00:57:49,069 --> 00:57:46,980
so common over time

1362
00:57:51,770 --> 00:57:49,079
um you know we started tracking back to

1363
00:57:55,010 --> 00:57:51,780
the original nids days and we found that

1364
00:57:56,930 --> 00:57:55,020
in some cases you know I remember

1365
00:57:58,130 --> 00:57:56,940
um you know my wife remarking that you

1366
00:58:00,410 --> 00:57:58,140
know there were people in the bedroom

1367
00:58:03,890 --> 00:58:00,420
sort of walking walking around the

1368
00:58:06,290 --> 00:58:03,900
bedroom Robert Bigelow reported a lot of

1369
00:58:08,630 --> 00:58:06,300
activity in his household George Knapp

1370
00:58:10,250 --> 00:58:08,640
had been on the property and I'm not

1371
00:58:11,450 --> 00:58:10,260
going to deny weird so you know

1372
00:58:13,670 --> 00:58:11,460
look weird always happens rather

1373
00:58:17,930 --> 00:58:13,680
than sitting with you guys so the bottom

1374
00:58:19,549 --> 00:58:17,940
line is that that we we investigated a

1375
00:58:22,190 --> 00:58:19,559
lot of these people who had had The

1376
00:58:24,349 --> 00:58:22,200
Hitchhiker effect and we found a small

1377
00:58:27,770 --> 00:58:24,359
number of them were coming down with

1378
00:58:32,150 --> 00:58:27,780
autoimmune diseases Hashimoto's

1379
00:58:34,190 --> 00:58:32,160
thyroiditis Sovereign syndrome lupus

1380
00:58:37,670 --> 00:58:34,200
um there was Graves disease there were

1381
00:58:41,630 --> 00:58:37,680
there were other autoimmune diseases and

1382
00:58:44,750 --> 00:58:41,640
from a a relatively small cluster of

1383
00:58:46,130 --> 00:58:44,760
people who had endured this hitchhiker

1384
00:58:46,970 --> 00:58:46,140
effect

1385
00:58:50,569 --> 00:58:46,980
um

1386
00:58:53,450 --> 00:58:50,579
there was a an interesting Spike or

1387
00:58:56,750 --> 00:58:53,460
cluster it was disproportionate

1388
00:58:59,270 --> 00:58:56,760
n is very small so the the N is pretty

1389
00:59:02,650 --> 00:58:59,280
small so

1390
00:59:05,150 --> 00:59:02,660
I would hesitate from uh

1391
00:59:09,049 --> 00:59:05,160
publishing a scientific paper about this

1392
00:59:11,630 --> 00:59:09,059
but the observations were that The

1393
00:59:15,049 --> 00:59:11,640
Hitchhiker effect in many cases was

1394
00:59:18,349 --> 00:59:15,059
associated with a flare-up of autoimmune

1395
00:59:20,450 --> 00:59:18,359
diseases in one or more people in that

1396
00:59:23,270 --> 00:59:20,460
household now

1397
00:59:25,849 --> 00:59:23,280
one one other thing about the uh about

1398
00:59:28,490 --> 00:59:25,859
The Hitchhiker effect is that it was not

1399
00:59:30,289 --> 00:59:28,500
confined to skin marker wrench

1400
00:59:35,690 --> 00:59:30,299
um we had other

1401
00:59:41,390 --> 00:59:39,530
um who had family and who had exactly

1402
00:59:45,049 --> 00:59:41,400
the same kind of thing they went back to

1403
00:59:48,289 --> 00:59:45,059
the east coast After experiencing very

1404
00:59:50,589 --> 00:59:48,299
dramatic effects in say Oregon is one

1405
00:59:53,690 --> 00:59:50,599
example that we put in the book

1406
00:59:56,049 --> 00:59:53,700
skin markers of the Pentagon and they

1407
00:59:58,309 --> 00:59:56,059
went back to the east coast and

1408
01:00:00,710 --> 00:59:58,319
paranormal stuff flared up in the house

1409
01:00:04,430 --> 01:00:00,720
so it's not only a Skinwalker Ranch

1410
01:00:07,730 --> 01:00:04,440
specific phenomenon it's specific to

1411
01:00:09,950 --> 01:00:07,740
certain intense close encounter effects

1412
01:00:11,569 --> 01:00:09,960
and by the way that family The

1413
01:00:14,150 --> 01:00:11,579
Hitchhiker family that were he was

1414
01:00:16,430 --> 01:00:14,160
talking about the kids would see orbs

1415
01:00:18,530 --> 01:00:16,440
floating around in the in their rooms

1416
01:00:20,809 --> 01:00:18,540
inside the house there were tricks where

1417
01:00:22,190 --> 01:00:20,819
the dog ends up on the roof I mean there

1418
01:00:23,690 --> 01:00:22,200
was a lot of really strange things like

1419
01:00:27,049 --> 01:00:23,700
the original stuff from Skywalker Ranch

1420
01:00:29,150 --> 01:00:27,059
the same people saying and 13 years

1421
01:00:32,089 --> 01:00:29,160
later is still going on for that family

1422
01:00:34,130 --> 01:00:32,099
13 years right so but it's you have so

1423
01:00:36,170 --> 01:00:34,140
many examples of this right that I'm

1424
01:00:37,970 --> 01:00:36,180
aware of that that you've tracked that

1425
01:00:39,289 --> 01:00:37,980
you've kind of named it this term

1426
01:00:41,930 --> 01:00:39,299
because it's just something you couldn't

1427
01:00:44,809 --> 01:00:41,940
ignore you know even if my mind can't

1428
01:00:47,030 --> 01:00:44,819
accept it you can't ignore it as as a

1429
01:00:49,549 --> 01:00:47,040
reporter as a scientist that's happening

1430
01:00:52,190 --> 01:00:49,559
so but there's more right there there's

1431
01:00:54,770 --> 01:00:52,200
specific things known about the negative

1432
01:00:56,990 --> 01:00:54,780
biological effects on the human body if

1433
01:00:59,870 --> 01:00:57,000
they get into close proximity often

1434
01:01:01,789 --> 01:00:59,880
cases with it with an actual UFO let me

1435
01:01:03,710 --> 01:01:01,799
let me preface this too because we just

1436
01:01:06,109 --> 01:01:03,720
had this new report come out a couple of

1437
01:01:08,089 --> 01:01:06,119
weeks ago from odni in which they said

1438
01:01:10,789 --> 01:01:08,099
we haven't found any cases where anybody

1439
01:01:13,549 --> 01:01:10,799
was been harmed by being in proximity to

1440
01:01:15,349 --> 01:01:13,559
UFO which suggests maybe they should get

1441
01:01:17,329 --> 01:01:15,359
in their car drive to the DIA and look

1442
01:01:21,370 --> 01:01:17,339
because you guys found a lot of cases

1443
01:01:24,430 --> 01:01:21,380
yeah and and and within the database of

1444
01:01:28,010 --> 01:01:24,440
we we call it the data warehouse because

1445
01:01:32,210 --> 01:01:28,020
uh Jacques Valley designed this capella

1446
01:01:35,030 --> 01:01:32,220
data warehouse to house multiple subsets

1447
01:01:37,010 --> 01:01:35,040
of databases so there were 11 separate

1448
01:01:39,710 --> 01:01:37,020
databases within this data warehouse

1449
01:01:44,030 --> 01:01:39,720
that was transmitted to the defense

1450
01:01:46,370 --> 01:01:44,040
intelligence agency in late 2010 as a

1451
01:01:48,890 --> 01:01:46,380
specific deliverable of the Osa program

1452
01:01:52,329 --> 01:01:48,900
but within that database there is a

1453
01:01:55,390 --> 01:01:52,339
subset of medical injury cases that

1454
01:01:57,829 --> 01:01:55,400
allsop slash pass investigated

1455
01:02:01,609 --> 01:01:57,839
you know there are two examples that I

1456
01:02:06,349 --> 01:02:01,619
can think of right off of the the book

1457
01:02:09,829 --> 01:02:06,359
number one is a guy in Georgia

1458
01:02:10,490 --> 01:02:09,839
whose son was outside playing

1459
01:02:12,770 --> 01:02:10,500
um

1460
01:02:16,130 --> 01:02:12,780
outside he was staying in the tent sort

1461
01:02:18,470 --> 01:02:16,140
of with uh with some neighbors and um

1462
01:02:21,349 --> 01:02:18,480
the dog started barking outside he went

1463
01:02:24,589 --> 01:02:21,359
outside to check it out and he saw this

1464
01:02:27,410 --> 01:02:24,599
large triangular object hovering above

1465
01:02:29,990 --> 01:02:27,420
the house and he was

1466
01:02:32,990 --> 01:02:30,000
um you know kind of really intrigued it

1467
01:02:35,870 --> 01:02:33,000
was silent it was low and it was a

1468
01:02:38,089 --> 01:02:35,880
classic black triangle sort of

1469
01:02:40,789 --> 01:02:38,099
um a hundred it was like a hundred yards

1470
01:02:44,750 --> 01:02:40,799
100 yards 100 yards so a very very large

1471
01:02:48,049 --> 01:02:44,760
object and it was it had lights on it

1472
01:02:51,109 --> 01:02:48,059
like flat flat or like pyramid in shape

1473
01:02:53,630 --> 01:02:51,119
triangle well it was a

1474
01:02:55,430 --> 01:02:53,640
from his perspective it was all he could

1475
01:02:57,650 --> 01:02:55,440
see was the underneath triangle from

1476
01:02:59,690 --> 01:02:57,660
angle of observation we would say I mean

1477
01:03:02,630 --> 01:02:59,700
it was it was difficult to tell that

1478
01:03:05,809 --> 01:03:02,640
from from his angle but anyway he tried

1479
01:03:08,270 --> 01:03:05,819
taking uh taking some uh photographs of

1480
01:03:10,670 --> 01:03:08,280
it with his cell phone and I mean it was

1481
01:03:12,650 --> 01:03:10,680
black against a black background so it

1482
01:03:15,349 --> 01:03:12,660
was obviously not going to come out very

1483
01:03:16,910 --> 01:03:15,359
well so he decided to light up the

1484
01:03:19,430 --> 01:03:16,920
bottom of it with the flashlight that he

1485
01:03:22,250 --> 01:03:19,440
had so he had a powerful flashlight so

1486
01:03:23,930 --> 01:03:22,260
he went in into his house grabbed it and

1487
01:03:26,329 --> 01:03:23,940
the thing was still there when he came

1488
01:03:29,089 --> 01:03:26,339
out and he lit up the bottom of it with

1489
01:03:32,170 --> 01:03:29,099
with a pretty powerful flashlight and

1490
01:03:35,870 --> 01:03:32,180
almost instantly this blue

1491
01:03:39,289 --> 01:03:35,880
intense blue light came from one of the

1492
01:03:41,030 --> 01:03:39,299
apex of the triangles and blinded him to

1493
01:03:44,329 --> 01:03:41,040
the extent that he turned around and

1494
01:03:46,490 --> 01:03:44,339
crouched and sort of you know uh to

1495
01:03:50,569 --> 01:03:46,500
protect himself blinded him completely

1496
01:03:53,510 --> 01:03:50,579
but even when he was crouching he felt

1497
01:03:55,730 --> 01:03:53,520
this Burning on his neck so he ran

1498
01:03:57,890 --> 01:03:55,740
inside and sort of watched it from the

1499
01:04:01,010 --> 01:03:57,900
vantage point of the house and the blue

1500
01:04:03,650 --> 01:04:01,020
the this blue beam that had hit him was

1501
01:04:06,289 --> 01:04:03,660
uh he he described it as I think a foot

1502
01:04:09,109 --> 01:04:06,299
or a couple of foot in in diameter but

1503
01:04:11,270 --> 01:04:09,119
it was a very intense light so you know

1504
01:04:13,190 --> 01:04:11,280
he watched it and then this object took

1505
01:04:14,690 --> 01:04:13,200
off really quickly

1506
01:04:18,049 --> 01:04:14,700
um there were other objects associated

1507
01:04:20,390 --> 01:04:18,059
with it he felt not good he woke up his

1508
01:04:22,730 --> 01:04:20,400
whole neck was really badly sunburned

1509
01:04:24,770 --> 01:04:22,740
his back was badly sunburned he had a

1510
01:04:28,309 --> 01:04:24,780
metallic taste in his mouth

1511
01:04:30,049 --> 01:04:28,319
had a severe headache felt nauseous he

1512
01:04:33,049 --> 01:04:30,059
was interviewed by

1513
01:04:34,910 --> 01:04:33,059
um by people from alsap okay so the DIA

1514
01:04:36,770 --> 01:04:34,920
he actually got to interview this guy

1515
01:04:39,289 --> 01:04:36,780
and get into some of his metal we took

1516
01:04:41,089 --> 01:04:39,299
photographs of a sunburn and uh took a

1517
01:04:44,870 --> 01:04:41,099
lot of blood samples well you were right

1518
01:04:47,329 --> 01:04:44,880
there yeah I mean well we had to uh MD

1519
01:04:48,950 --> 01:04:47,339
PhD Physicians who were on call

1520
01:04:52,370 --> 01:04:48,960
basically

1521
01:04:54,470 --> 01:04:52,380
um that were able to luckily travel to

1522
01:04:56,089 --> 01:04:54,480
different places in the United States to

1523
01:04:58,130 --> 01:04:56,099
investigate these kind of medical issues

1524
01:04:59,809 --> 01:04:58,140
you got to get the report it's got to

1525
01:05:01,430 --> 01:04:59,819
get to you you got to get there quick

1526
01:05:03,890 --> 01:05:01,440
where you still got the summer and then

1527
01:05:06,349 --> 01:05:03,900
follow it and then follow it over the

1528
01:05:08,809 --> 01:05:06,359
long term and and wow and he was

1529
01:05:12,230 --> 01:05:08,819
followed over multiple blood samples

1530
01:05:15,289 --> 01:05:12,240
over over many many months he came down

1531
01:05:17,770 --> 01:05:15,299
with a Litany of different uh medical

1532
01:05:20,690 --> 01:05:17,780
issues including a phenomenon called

1533
01:05:23,270 --> 01:05:20,700
castleman's disease which is which

1534
01:05:26,030 --> 01:05:23,280
involves sort of these spontaneous

1535
01:05:29,210 --> 01:05:26,040
eruptions of tumors but they were not

1536
01:05:32,329 --> 01:05:29,220
malignant tumors but eventually you know

1537
01:05:35,809 --> 01:05:32,339
he sort of began to recover and so he

1538
01:05:37,130 --> 01:05:35,819
was followed over many many months over

1539
01:05:39,470 --> 01:05:37,140
a year

1540
01:05:41,690 --> 01:05:39,480
um but the fact is he was his health

1541
01:05:44,510 --> 01:05:41,700
went really downhill after this event

1542
01:05:47,690 --> 01:05:44,520
there were other cases in in our

1543
01:05:49,609 --> 01:05:47,700
database that were even more so where

1544
01:05:52,930 --> 01:05:49,619
you know people had came down with

1545
01:05:56,329 --> 01:05:52,940
cancer they had uh you know

1546
01:05:59,630 --> 01:05:56,339
after these close encounters with UFOs

1547
01:06:02,990 --> 01:05:59,640
so the idea that you know there's no

1548
01:06:06,069 --> 01:06:03,000
physical or pathological or medical

1549
01:06:09,530 --> 01:06:06,079
injury cases associated with UFOs

1550
01:06:11,569 --> 01:06:09,540
is counteracted by the database that's

1551
01:06:14,349 --> 01:06:11,579
sitting on the shelves of the defense

1552
01:06:17,030 --> 01:06:14,359
intelligence agency as we speak yeah

1553
01:06:18,470 --> 01:06:17,040
unbelievable the statements we're seeing

1554
01:06:20,809 --> 01:06:18,480
now I mean from a national security

1555
01:06:23,270 --> 01:06:20,819
standpoint and some of the data is

1556
01:06:25,130 --> 01:06:23,280
already there I I really hope this is

1557
01:06:27,950 --> 01:06:25,140
handled well people hate the the threat

1558
01:06:31,370 --> 01:06:27,960
narrative but until you know intent and

1559
01:06:33,410 --> 01:06:31,380
capability and an opportunity right so

1560
01:06:35,150 --> 01:06:33,420
okay I guess where where I'm at with

1561
01:06:39,589 --> 01:06:35,160
this right now is I you know I want to

1562
01:06:41,750 --> 01:06:39,599
know uh you know where does this go and

1563
01:06:43,609 --> 01:06:41,760
what do you know you know we're talking

1564
01:06:46,549 --> 01:06:43,619
about UFOs talking about all this stuff

1565
01:06:48,289 --> 01:06:46,559
you know what do you know about UFOs

1566
01:06:49,730 --> 01:06:48,299
what do you know about UFOs this

1567
01:06:52,130 --> 01:06:49,740
phenomenon we'll call it the phenomena

1568
01:06:54,529 --> 01:06:52,140
that includes UFOs what do you know and

1569
01:06:57,230 --> 01:06:54,539
where does this go

1570
01:06:58,670 --> 01:06:57,240
well I guess the short answer to this is

1571
01:07:01,549 --> 01:06:58,680
is that

1572
01:07:04,609 --> 01:07:01,559
um UFO effects on people

1573
01:07:08,750 --> 01:07:04,619
can be profound and it can be profound

1574
01:07:12,289 --> 01:07:08,760
in the uh at various levels ranging from

1575
01:07:15,170 --> 01:07:12,299
The Superficial to the catastrophic and

1576
01:07:17,329 --> 01:07:15,180
so you know you you you have people

1577
01:07:20,029 --> 01:07:17,339
reporting life-changing experiences

1578
01:07:22,430 --> 01:07:20,039
after close encounters with UFOs I mean

1579
01:07:24,109 --> 01:07:22,440
we interviewed uh quite a quite a

1580
01:07:26,630 --> 01:07:24,119
monopoly of different people like

1581
01:07:29,390 --> 01:07:26,640
positive experiences too yeah okay yeah

1582
01:07:31,609 --> 01:07:29,400
I mean some some people had

1583
01:07:34,609 --> 01:07:31,619
um you know changes changes in their

1584
01:07:36,710 --> 01:07:34,619
World Views some people had uh you know

1585
01:07:37,789 --> 01:07:36,720
we we databased everything which was

1586
01:07:40,670 --> 01:07:37,799
good

1587
01:07:43,069 --> 01:07:40,680
um we we database psychological effects

1588
01:07:45,650 --> 01:07:43,079
you know people people having sort of

1589
01:07:47,510 --> 01:07:45,660
really bizarre dreams and this kind of

1590
01:07:50,270 --> 01:07:47,520
thing afterwards

1591
01:07:52,130 --> 01:07:50,280
um we had physiological effects you know

1592
01:07:54,770 --> 01:07:52,140
the sort of metallic taste in the mouth

1593
01:07:57,529 --> 01:07:54,780
was not uncommon uh people having

1594
01:07:59,930 --> 01:07:57,539
sunburn was not uncommon

1595
01:08:02,569 --> 01:07:59,940
um you know sometimes people lost hair

1596
01:08:05,569 --> 01:08:02,579
this guy who had been is up by the

1597
01:08:08,210 --> 01:08:05,579
triangle over his house in Georgia lost

1598
01:08:10,510 --> 01:08:08,220
lost hair in the back back area of his

1599
01:08:12,650 --> 01:08:10,520
of his head

1600
01:08:15,770 --> 01:08:12,660
physiological effects pathological

1601
01:08:19,309 --> 01:08:15,780
effects medical injuries so effects on

1602
01:08:21,550 --> 01:08:19,319
people are not to be neglected so going

1603
01:08:25,010 --> 01:08:21,560
forward

1604
01:08:27,349 --> 01:08:25,020
arrows the new organization and

1605
01:08:28,570 --> 01:08:27,359
um you know ARA will be taking up the

1606
01:08:32,150 --> 01:08:28,580
mantle

1607
01:08:34,130 --> 01:08:32,160
of I guess where OSAP left off she

1608
01:08:36,530 --> 01:08:34,140
headed right now by Sean Kirkpatrick is

1609
01:08:40,249 --> 01:08:36,540
that correct arrows that's the new UFO

1610
01:08:42,410 --> 01:08:40,259
program yes uh and and so

1611
01:08:44,809 --> 01:08:42,420
um obviously it's early days yet in

1612
01:08:46,849 --> 01:08:44,819
order to sort of assess what's going on

1613
01:08:49,370 --> 01:08:46,859
because we're only looking at the

1614
01:08:52,870 --> 01:08:49,380
unclassified reports that are coming out

1615
01:08:56,209 --> 01:08:52,880
but you know Sean uh fitzpat or

1616
01:08:59,689 --> 01:08:56,219
Kirkpatrick also released or somebody

1617
01:09:02,570 --> 01:08:59,699
released on his behalf a a an eight

1618
01:09:05,570 --> 01:09:02,580
slide PowerPoint presentation that sort

1619
01:09:07,910 --> 01:09:05,580
of summarizes what Arrow intent and

1620
01:09:11,269 --> 01:09:07,920
mission statement and vision statement

1621
01:09:14,749 --> 01:09:11,279
and what the next steps are and I was

1622
01:09:18,050 --> 01:09:14,759
very encouraged to see that slide number

1623
01:09:21,169 --> 01:09:18,060
seven there's a focus on effects on the

1624
01:09:23,329 --> 01:09:21,179
Observer you know psychological effects

1625
01:09:26,450 --> 01:09:23,339
physiological effects that's right out

1626
01:09:28,370 --> 01:09:26,460
of the OSAP Playbook and so when I saw

1627
01:09:31,130 --> 01:09:28,380
that as opposed to when I saw the report

1628
01:09:33,829 --> 01:09:31,140
the report was pretty I was you know

1629
01:09:36,410 --> 01:09:33,839
only used to say lean it was lean on

1630
01:09:38,809 --> 01:09:36,420
details to report on a report right it's

1631
01:09:41,570 --> 01:09:38,819
a report on a classified report it'll be

1632
01:09:44,870 --> 01:09:41,580
interesting it will be interesting or

1633
01:09:47,510 --> 01:09:44,880
would be interesting to to view what

1634
01:09:48,769 --> 01:09:47,520
exact sensors were used

1635
01:09:50,570 --> 01:09:48,779
um you know and obviously you can't

1636
01:09:52,930 --> 01:09:50,580
report that

1637
01:09:55,910 --> 01:09:52,940
um you know sources and methods in an

1638
01:09:58,270 --> 01:09:55,920
unclassified framework so

1639
01:10:01,610 --> 01:09:58,280
um but the fact is that the company

1640
01:10:04,130 --> 01:10:01,620
accompanying PowerPoint presentation

1641
01:10:07,310 --> 01:10:04,140
um gave me some optimism if they only

1642
01:10:11,209 --> 01:10:07,320
look at UFO data sensor data military

1643
01:10:13,250 --> 01:10:11,219
cases right just kind of what atip did

1644
01:10:15,470 --> 01:10:13,260
um you know after OS app was gone they

1645
01:10:17,810 --> 01:10:15,480
look at a very smaller subset of of

1646
01:10:20,570 --> 01:10:17,820
cases and phenomena are they ever going

1647
01:10:22,490 --> 01:10:20,580
to solve this well I mean play What If

1648
01:10:25,490 --> 01:10:22,500
for us if boss app had been allowed to

1649
01:10:28,790 --> 01:10:25,500
continue how what you guys did in that

1650
01:10:31,610 --> 01:10:28,800
short 27 month period versus the 18

1651
01:10:34,669 --> 01:10:31,620
months that arrow in one form or another

1652
01:10:36,649 --> 01:10:34,679
has been existing we don't know how many

1653
01:10:39,169 --> 01:10:36,659
staff they have versus what you guys

1654
01:10:41,750 --> 01:10:39,179
were able to do so describe the setup of

1655
01:10:45,169 --> 01:10:41,760
OSAP how it worked what you accomplished

1656
01:10:47,350 --> 01:10:45,179
what the lasting value of the data is

1657
01:10:49,850 --> 01:10:47,360
that the world still hasn't seen versus

1658
01:10:51,950 --> 01:10:49,860
your understanding of what this study is

1659
01:10:55,850 --> 01:10:51,960
now because in a sense we still have

1660
01:10:58,490 --> 01:10:55,860
silos right arrow has classified stuff

1661
01:11:00,590 --> 01:10:58,500
they won't share it with NASA which is

1662
01:11:02,750 --> 01:11:00,600
doing its own study they don't share it

1663
01:11:05,030 --> 01:11:02,760
with Abby Loeb and his private scientist

1664
01:11:07,130 --> 01:11:05,040
group everybody's looking for their own

1665
01:11:08,689 --> 01:11:07,140
piece of this pie but nobody is getting

1666
01:11:10,910 --> 01:11:08,699
the whole thing so

1667
01:11:13,070 --> 01:11:10,920
your hopes your dreams your fears for

1668
01:11:15,950 --> 01:11:13,080
Arrow versus what you did well it is

1669
01:11:19,669 --> 01:11:15,960
interesting to note that the the cutoff

1670
01:11:23,030 --> 01:11:19,679
point for the first odni report which

1671
01:11:27,649 --> 01:11:23,040
happened on June 25th of 2021 was about

1672
01:11:32,689 --> 01:11:27,659
March of 2021 so here we are in January

1673
01:11:35,209 --> 01:11:32,699
of 2023 about 20 months after uh after

1674
01:11:37,790 --> 01:11:35,219
that cut off point so the data Gathering

1675
01:11:39,890 --> 01:11:37,800
has been happening for probably a

1676
01:11:42,169 --> 01:11:39,900
minimum of two years which was about the

1677
01:11:44,830 --> 01:11:42,179
lifetime of the OSAP program

1678
01:11:48,229 --> 01:11:44,840
so during that program in the first

1679
01:11:50,990 --> 01:11:48,239
seven to eight months we did hire 50

1680
01:11:54,229 --> 01:11:51,000
full-time uh investigators we have no

1681
01:11:57,290 --> 01:11:54,239
idea right now uh Beyond uh Sean

1682
01:11:59,990 --> 01:11:57,300
Kirkpatrick uh how many full-time staff

1683
01:12:02,990 --> 01:12:00,000
that Ro has foreign

1684
01:12:04,850 --> 01:12:03,000
we don't know I mean they may have 50.

1685
01:12:07,130 --> 01:12:04,860
uh we don't know

1686
01:12:10,729 --> 01:12:07,140
um but I know that all sap had hired 50

1687
01:12:12,229 --> 01:12:10,739
and had trained and deployed uh right

1688
01:12:14,990 --> 01:12:12,239
through the United States in Rapid

1689
01:12:18,410 --> 01:12:15,000
reaction teams to investigate these

1690
01:12:20,570 --> 01:12:18,420
instances of UFO phenomena we also

1691
01:12:22,310 --> 01:12:20,580
deployed teams to Brazil in that first

1692
01:12:24,709 --> 01:12:22,320
24 months

1693
01:12:26,689 --> 01:12:24,719
looking at the

1694
01:12:29,570 --> 01:12:26,699
um at the sort of the unclassified

1695
01:12:33,110 --> 01:12:29,580
reports that a first one came out in

1696
01:12:36,550 --> 01:12:33,120
June 25th of 2021 the the second one

1697
01:12:41,750 --> 01:12:36,560
came out on what was it uh

1698
01:12:45,290 --> 01:12:41,760
January the 12th right of 2020 three so

1699
01:12:48,890 --> 01:12:45,300
uh the spine was about 18 months uh

1700
01:12:50,149 --> 01:12:48,900
looking at the unclassified version uh I

1701
01:12:52,070 --> 01:12:50,159
mean we're we're looking at an

1702
01:12:54,350 --> 01:12:52,080
organization that's still setting itself

1703
01:12:55,729 --> 01:12:54,360
up it's still getting its methodologies

1704
01:12:58,189 --> 01:12:55,739
together

1705
01:13:01,370 --> 01:12:58,199
um at that stage OSAP had

1706
01:13:03,169 --> 01:13:01,380
um you know had compiled 11 separate

1707
01:13:05,990 --> 01:13:03,179
databases

1708
01:13:08,110 --> 01:13:06,000
um it had it had you know delivered

1709
01:13:10,310 --> 01:13:08,120
pretty well everything that it had

1710
01:13:13,010 --> 01:13:10,320
initially promised that the defense

1711
01:13:17,870 --> 01:13:13,020
intelligence agency to deliver

1712
01:13:21,709 --> 01:13:17,880
um whether or not Arrow have a a large

1713
01:13:23,990 --> 01:13:21,719
classified section we don't know is is

1714
01:13:25,490 --> 01:13:24,000
OS app the model that should be followed

1715
01:13:28,850 --> 01:13:25,500
do you think because I mean looking at

1716
01:13:30,770 --> 01:13:28,860
can arrow look into all the phenomena

1717
01:13:32,510 --> 01:13:30,780
that you guys were able to look at and

1718
01:13:34,970 --> 01:13:32,520
you know you did it in secrecy you

1719
01:13:37,189 --> 01:13:34,980
weren't writing publishing papers to be

1720
01:13:40,490 --> 01:13:37,199
printed in in journals or anything like

1721
01:13:43,130 --> 01:13:40,500
that you you need some kind of uh you

1722
01:13:45,590 --> 01:13:43,140
know I think there's a phase uh you know

1723
01:13:48,169 --> 01:13:45,600
that the first phase

1724
01:13:52,370 --> 01:13:48,179
um if I were starting this would be that

1725
01:13:54,410 --> 01:13:52,380
that you do focus on the

1726
01:13:56,750 --> 01:13:54,420
um you know nuts and bolts yeah well

1727
01:13:59,090 --> 01:13:56,760
what what the the current level of

1728
01:14:01,970 --> 01:13:59,100
sensors that are out there and that can

1729
01:14:03,229 --> 01:14:01,980
be deployed that already are up and

1730
01:14:05,209 --> 01:14:03,239
running

1731
01:14:07,189 --> 01:14:05,219
um within the Department of Defense I I

1732
01:14:08,689 --> 01:14:07,199
would use those

1733
01:14:10,970 --> 01:14:08,699
um and then phase two and phase three

1734
01:14:13,310 --> 01:14:10,980
would come down later where you start

1735
01:14:16,370 --> 01:14:13,320
looking at the effects on people as I

1736
01:14:18,410 --> 01:14:16,380
said Sean Kirkpatrick's slide number

1737
01:14:21,110 --> 01:14:18,420
seven is pretty encouraging from that

1738
01:14:24,050 --> 01:14:21,120
perspective so there is an intent there

1739
01:14:25,910 --> 01:14:24,060
yeah they they are not excluding right

1740
01:14:28,189 --> 01:14:25,920
your guys findings they're just not

1741
01:14:29,990 --> 01:14:28,199
quite uh putting it in an unclassified

1742
01:14:32,390 --> 01:14:30,000
report on a report but I haven't found

1743
01:14:34,430 --> 01:14:32,400
it yet they could get a copy of the book

1744
01:14:36,290 --> 01:14:34,440
though but so check it out I mean you've

1745
01:14:38,570 --> 01:14:36,300
got the national reconnaissance office

1746
01:14:40,790 --> 01:14:38,580
and all of the great technology that the

1747
01:14:42,470 --> 01:14:40,800
United States has we have you know the

1748
01:14:44,630 --> 01:14:42,480
analysis through the geospatial

1749
01:14:47,209 --> 01:14:44,640
intelligence agency we have other

1750
01:14:49,550 --> 01:14:47,219
agencies that can collect High Fidelity

1751
01:14:51,470 --> 01:14:49,560
great data regarding the nuts and bolts

1752
01:14:53,689 --> 01:14:51,480
of UFOs

1753
01:14:55,189 --> 01:14:53,699
and if I'm not mistaken arrow is

1754
01:14:57,649 --> 01:14:55,199
reporting to the the Director of

1755
01:15:00,770 --> 01:14:57,659
National Intelligence right that is part

1756
01:15:02,630 --> 01:15:00,780
of where that's going or the Secretary

1757
01:15:05,689 --> 01:15:02,640
of Defense I'm sorry all the way to the

1758
01:15:07,790 --> 01:15:05,699
Secretary of Defense right so if that's

1759
01:15:11,990 --> 01:15:07,800
if that's where this is going for sure

1760
01:15:14,990 --> 01:15:12,000
focus on the immediate possible

1761
01:15:17,390 --> 01:15:15,000
foreign threat dealing with technology

1762
01:15:19,550 --> 01:15:17,400
to see what we can glean I get that so

1763
01:15:21,830 --> 01:15:19,560
I've got high hopes and that one line in

1764
01:15:23,930 --> 01:15:21,840
there that you found that it could go

1765
01:15:26,870 --> 01:15:23,940
further I guess kind of just to start

1766
01:15:29,689 --> 01:15:26,880
wrapping up I I just what do you know

1767
01:15:31,910 --> 01:15:29,699
about the phenomenon about UFOs what can

1768
01:15:34,610 --> 01:15:31,920
you say for sure maybe it's nothing you

1769
01:15:37,729 --> 01:15:34,620
know but what do we know about UFOs and

1770
01:15:40,610 --> 01:15:37,739
where does this go as I said what we

1771
01:15:43,790 --> 01:15:40,620
know is what we glean from all of the

1772
01:15:46,910 --> 01:15:43,800
data that has been discussed and you

1773
01:15:50,290 --> 01:15:46,920
know that the UFOs are real we well I

1774
01:15:53,750 --> 01:15:50,300
mean tell me yes you UFOs are

1775
01:15:56,270 --> 01:15:53,760
technologically sophisticated they have

1776
01:15:59,090 --> 01:15:56,280
uh performance characteristics that are

1777
01:16:02,209 --> 01:15:59,100
you know the the five observables are

1778
01:16:06,110 --> 01:16:02,219
are sort of well documented but they

1779
01:16:08,630 --> 01:16:06,120
also have a very profound uh effects on

1780
01:16:11,030 --> 01:16:08,640
some people or they have superficial

1781
01:16:14,530 --> 01:16:11,040
effects on other people but they do have

1782
01:16:18,950 --> 01:16:14,540
effects on P people so going forward

1783
01:16:22,490 --> 01:16:18,960
is is to combine both of those is to

1784
01:16:26,410 --> 01:16:22,500
study UFO performance and and you know

1785
01:16:29,450 --> 01:16:26,420
the hope is that out of UFO performance

1786
01:16:32,209 --> 01:16:29,460
can come theoretical physics which will

1787
01:16:34,910 --> 01:16:32,219
eventually translate into engineering

1788
01:16:36,709 --> 01:16:34,920
does our government have downed UFOs

1789
01:16:38,510 --> 01:16:36,719
from Unknown Origin that they've been

1790
01:16:40,250 --> 01:16:38,520
trying and are trying to reverse

1791
01:16:42,530 --> 01:16:40,260
engineer and exploit those Technologies

1792
01:16:46,250 --> 01:16:42,540
understand the physics understand that

1793
01:16:48,590 --> 01:16:46,260
technology do we have that to work with

1794
01:16:49,689 --> 01:16:48,600
I can't talk about that but the answer

1795
01:16:52,250 --> 01:16:49,699
is yes

1796
01:16:54,169 --> 01:16:52,260
let me let me put let me ask it this way

1797
01:16:56,090 --> 01:16:54,179
so there are a number of whistleblowers

1798
01:16:58,370 --> 01:16:56,100
who are who have new protections they're

1799
01:17:00,350 --> 01:16:58,380
lining up we've heard we know some of

1800
01:17:02,209 --> 01:17:00,360
them and that we know generally what

1801
01:17:04,689 --> 01:17:02,219
they're prepared to say let's say they

1802
01:17:07,610 --> 01:17:04,699
tell this to Congress and Congress

1803
01:17:10,130 --> 01:17:07,620
authorizes Arrow hey the stuff is over

1804
01:17:12,950 --> 01:17:10,140
here go get it how does that change the

1805
01:17:15,110 --> 01:17:12,960
world if we suddenly acknowledge or at

1806
01:17:17,110 --> 01:17:15,120
least the government finds and locates

1807
01:17:19,850 --> 01:17:17,120
and tests

1808
01:17:21,709 --> 01:17:19,860
somewhat in the open these meta

1809
01:17:24,530 --> 01:17:21,719
materials created by someone else

1810
01:17:26,270 --> 01:17:24,540
they're not ours or entire craft that

1811
01:17:28,430 --> 01:17:26,280
were built by someone else and we can't

1812
01:17:30,530 --> 01:17:28,440
figure out how it how they fly how does

1813
01:17:32,810 --> 01:17:30,540
that change the dynamic of this and does

1814
01:17:35,270 --> 01:17:32,820
that does that answer actually answer

1815
01:17:37,189 --> 01:17:35,280
the big questions who they who built

1816
01:17:40,550 --> 01:17:37,199
them where they're from why they're here

1817
01:17:42,770 --> 01:17:40,560
well it certainly answers

1818
01:17:45,709 --> 01:17:42,780
um the sort of sneaking suspicion that

1819
01:17:47,510 --> 01:17:45,719
people have had over many many many

1820
01:17:49,850 --> 01:17:47,520
decades that the United States

1821
01:17:52,550 --> 01:17:49,860
government is not coming out with the

1822
01:17:55,970 --> 01:17:52,560
full truth of what has happened behind

1823
01:17:57,410 --> 01:17:55,980
closed doors in terms of the the

1824
01:17:58,850 --> 01:17:57,420
questions that you're asking about

1825
01:17:59,450 --> 01:17:58,860
though

1826
01:18:02,390 --> 01:17:59,460
um

1827
01:18:05,209 --> 01:18:02,400
technical performance and performance

1828
01:18:07,970 --> 01:18:05,219
characteristics are fundamental if if

1829
01:18:11,209 --> 01:18:07,980
the analysis the level of analysis that

1830
01:18:13,669 --> 01:18:11,219
has happened on these objects is

1831
01:18:16,030 --> 01:18:13,679
sufficient to generate you know as I

1832
01:18:18,830 --> 01:18:16,040
said physics and Engineering

1833
01:18:21,229 --> 01:18:18,840
that is a major breakthrough and that

1834
01:18:25,490 --> 01:18:21,239
would be a fundamental departure point

1835
01:18:27,590 --> 01:18:25,500
for Humanity because Humanity would be

1836
01:18:29,990 --> 01:18:27,600
able to answer that question are we

1837
01:18:32,030 --> 01:18:30,000
alone or not alone in the universe we

1838
01:18:35,149 --> 01:18:32,040
wouldn't be able to answer from that

1839
01:18:37,490 --> 01:18:35,159
just from the raw materials or The Meta

1840
01:18:39,110 --> 01:18:37,500
materials where they're from or what

1841
01:18:40,970 --> 01:18:39,120
their interest is the bigger question is

1842
01:18:43,729 --> 01:18:40,980
why are they here where are they from

1843
01:18:46,490 --> 01:18:43,739
what's their interest in us right but at

1844
01:18:48,229 --> 01:18:46,500
least that if you had that confirmed yes

1845
01:18:50,330 --> 01:18:48,239
there is somebody else here here it is

1846
01:18:52,189 --> 01:18:50,340
here's the stuff then you could go on

1847
01:18:54,890 --> 01:18:52,199
and answer at least address the other

1848
01:18:56,630 --> 01:18:54,900
questions well I I'm not only that but

1849
01:18:59,030 --> 01:18:56,640
you could get

1850
01:19:01,729 --> 01:18:59,040
um you know the Galileo project has got

1851
01:19:04,189 --> 01:19:01,739
a lot of of different scientific talent

1852
01:19:07,149 --> 01:19:04,199
and expertise associated with so you

1853
01:19:09,890 --> 01:19:07,159
could start really sort of co-opting

1854
01:19:12,530 --> 01:19:09,900
scientific organizations that's already

1855
01:19:14,689 --> 01:19:12,540
happening actually but I think you could

1856
01:19:19,030 --> 01:19:14,699
really accelerate that once the

1857
01:19:22,490 --> 01:19:19,040
certainty uh was there that there was

1858
01:19:25,490 --> 01:19:22,500
technology of Unknown Origin in

1859
01:19:27,310 --> 01:19:25,500
existence that it had been

1860
01:19:30,169 --> 01:19:27,320
um you know it had been

1861
01:19:32,870 --> 01:19:30,179
really discovered and that it was

1862
01:19:34,490 --> 01:19:32,880
unequivocal if that was that message was

1863
01:19:35,870 --> 01:19:34,500
put out to humanity it would be a game

1864
01:19:38,270 --> 01:19:35,880
changer is that true and the message

1865
01:19:43,010 --> 01:19:38,280
hasn't been put out

1866
01:19:44,870 --> 01:19:43,020
but is that true what you said that

1867
01:19:47,090 --> 01:19:44,880
there that there's a technology of

1868
01:19:51,290 --> 01:19:47,100
unknown well I I like I said I can't

1869
01:19:52,430 --> 01:19:51,300
talk about it but the answer is is yes

1870
01:19:56,209 --> 01:19:52,440
so

1871
01:19:58,430 --> 01:19:56,219
why why would a buddy of mine a really

1872
01:20:00,410 --> 01:19:58,440
funny buddy of mine you know I was

1873
01:20:02,870 --> 01:20:00,420
arguing with them like I don't get it I

1874
01:20:06,050 --> 01:20:02,880
said I don't get it why so much contact

1875
01:20:08,030 --> 01:20:06,060
so many UFOs for so long is there a

1876
01:20:10,490 --> 01:20:08,040
program what are they doing you know the

1877
01:20:12,950 --> 01:20:10,500
Tic Tac UFO wasn't performing for fravor

1878
01:20:16,510 --> 01:20:12,960
until it noticed them it was doing a job

1879
01:20:19,370 --> 01:20:16,520
so the question I have is why

1880
01:20:21,110 --> 01:20:19,380
so much activity what are what is what

1881
01:20:22,910 --> 01:20:21,120
is the UFO presence what are they doing

1882
01:20:24,950 --> 01:20:22,920
here brings us back to where we started

1883
01:20:26,630 --> 01:20:24,960
that word Consciousness I think it

1884
01:20:28,970 --> 01:20:26,640
column has some theories about that

1885
01:20:30,590 --> 01:20:28,980
right it brings it full circle to where

1886
01:20:32,570 --> 01:20:30,600
we started our conversation

1887
01:20:33,470 --> 01:20:32,580
yeah I mean

1888
01:20:36,290 --> 01:20:33,480
um

1889
01:20:38,689 --> 01:20:36,300
I guess it's it's like the old metaphor

1890
01:20:40,370 --> 01:20:38,699
of the tree in the Forest Falls and

1891
01:20:43,070 --> 01:20:40,380
nobody is there to

1892
01:20:46,669 --> 01:20:43,080
hear it um is the tree really falling in

1893
01:20:49,310 --> 01:20:46,679
the forest so the idea that UFOs are

1894
01:20:52,310 --> 01:20:49,320
interacting with planet Earth

1895
01:20:54,350 --> 01:20:52,320
um the sort of most likely scenario is

1896
01:20:56,750 --> 01:20:54,360
that the reason for that is that humans

1897
01:20:59,570 --> 01:20:56,760
are on the planet I mean there it's

1898
01:21:00,890 --> 01:20:59,580
unlikely that they're focusing only on

1899
01:21:05,570 --> 01:21:00,900
you know

1900
01:21:07,130 --> 01:21:05,580
uh marsupials or trees or trees so you

1901
01:21:08,689 --> 01:21:07,140
don't think they they'd be here if it

1902
01:21:10,910 --> 01:21:08,699
wasn't for the human presence here that

1903
01:21:13,370 --> 01:21:10,920
somehow that Humanity itself is the

1904
01:21:15,169 --> 01:21:13,380
focus of the interaction between these

1905
01:21:17,390 --> 01:21:15,179
unknowns that we call UFOs as other

1906
01:21:20,450 --> 01:21:17,400
intelligence that are operating these

1907
01:21:23,930 --> 01:21:20,460
that that's a working hypothesis you

1908
01:21:25,850 --> 01:21:23,940
know it could be that there are

1909
01:21:28,510 --> 01:21:25,860
um you know that they're not just

1910
01:21:32,149 --> 01:21:28,520
focusing on on Humanity but the

1911
01:21:34,510 --> 01:21:32,159
astounding number of uh sightings that

1912
01:21:38,030 --> 01:21:34,520
hundreds of thousands if not more

1913
01:21:40,610 --> 01:21:38,040
globally that are that are personalized

1914
01:21:44,410 --> 01:21:40,620
interactions between individuals or

1915
01:21:47,470 --> 01:21:44,420
groups small groups and UFOs that have

1916
01:21:51,350 --> 01:21:47,480
life-changing uh effects in some cases

1917
01:21:55,430 --> 01:21:51,360
and you know mentality changing in many

1918
01:21:59,209 --> 01:21:55,440
cases leads me to think that that one of

1919
01:22:01,570 --> 01:21:59,219
the agendas of the UFO phenomenon is to

1920
01:22:04,790 --> 01:22:01,580
interact with with humans but not

1921
01:22:08,270 --> 01:22:04,800
interact with the white house but

1922
01:22:10,669 --> 01:22:08,280
interact with individuals and

1923
01:22:14,450 --> 01:22:10,679
um there's a there's a maybe a process

1924
01:22:16,310 --> 01:22:14,460
where individuals are you know affected

1925
01:22:18,229 --> 01:22:16,320
in a positive way ultimately that

1926
01:22:21,590 --> 01:22:18,239
they're changing us one person at time

1927
01:22:23,990 --> 01:22:21,600
it I mean that's a possibility

1928
01:22:26,810 --> 01:22:24,000
I I can't think that the alternative

1929
01:22:28,370 --> 01:22:26,820
that the uh these hundreds of thousands

1930
01:22:30,770 --> 01:22:28,380
or millions of sightings that have

1931
01:22:34,910 --> 01:22:30,780
happened in the last just for the sake

1932
01:22:38,390 --> 01:22:34,920
of arguments 77 years since 1945

1933
01:22:40,850 --> 01:22:38,400
um would be sort of completely random

1934
01:22:42,950 --> 01:22:40,860
um events that are sort of passing

1935
01:22:44,750 --> 01:22:42,960
through and just you know being in the

1936
01:22:46,790 --> 01:22:44,760
right place at the right time I think

1937
01:22:49,490 --> 01:22:46,800
there's more to it than that because

1938
01:22:52,370 --> 01:22:49,500
other I mean the vast number of

1939
01:22:52,990 --> 01:22:52,380
sightings to me

1940
01:23:00,250 --> 01:22:53,000
um

1941
01:23:03,530 --> 01:23:00,260
somehow important and somehow

1942
01:23:05,570 --> 01:23:03,540
produces something that is you know that

1943
01:23:07,189 --> 01:23:05,580
is viable something that they need

1944
01:23:10,430 --> 01:23:07,199
something that interests them certainly

1945
01:23:15,169 --> 01:23:10,440
but something they need from us or is it

1946
01:23:17,149 --> 01:23:15,179
symbiotic I I I feel that you know

1947
01:23:19,010 --> 01:23:17,159
um maybe

1948
01:23:20,750 --> 01:23:19,020
um one of the agendas is human

1949
01:23:23,630 --> 01:23:20,760
consciousness

1950
01:23:26,510 --> 01:23:23,640
um that that an interaction with UFOs

1951
01:23:28,910 --> 01:23:26,520
May provoke changes in human

1952
01:23:31,010 --> 01:23:28,920
consciousness and and sort of we are

1953
01:23:33,050 --> 01:23:31,020
back to the sort of original discussion

1954
01:23:35,270 --> 01:23:33,060
point but you know one of the incidents

1955
01:23:38,450 --> 01:23:35,280
that happened on the Skinwalker Ranch is

1956
01:23:41,030 --> 01:23:38,460
kind of is emblematic of of this whole

1957
01:23:43,250 --> 01:23:41,040
thing and that is that we had six people

1958
01:23:46,610 --> 01:23:43,260
on the ranch

1959
01:23:49,430 --> 01:23:46,620
um suddenly all six of them had

1960
01:23:50,510 --> 01:23:49,440
um night vision binoculars and this

1961
01:23:53,990 --> 01:23:50,520
light

1962
01:23:56,450 --> 01:23:54,000
object popped up just from behind skin

1963
01:23:58,430 --> 01:23:56,460
marker Ridge popped up it was sort of

1964
01:24:01,250 --> 01:23:58,440
all just over the ridge

1965
01:24:03,770 --> 01:24:01,260
and so it just happened that all six

1966
01:24:06,110 --> 01:24:03,780
people had night vision binoculars they

1967
01:24:08,750 --> 01:24:06,120
exactly the same make and model

1968
01:24:10,250 --> 01:24:08,760
all six of them looked at this object

1969
01:24:12,970 --> 01:24:10,260
and you know through night vision

1970
01:24:15,350 --> 01:24:12,980
binoculars they it was like greatly

1971
01:24:18,709 --> 01:24:15,360
magnified the light was magnified

1972
01:24:21,649 --> 01:24:18,719
tremendously through this you know low

1973
01:24:23,990 --> 01:24:21,659
vision amplification and so there was a

1974
01:24:27,050 --> 01:24:24,000
sort of a debriefing that occurred later

1975
01:24:30,410 --> 01:24:27,060
that evening after that that evening had

1976
01:24:32,930 --> 01:24:30,420
passed and it turned out that all six

1977
01:24:34,850 --> 01:24:32,940
individuals saw completely different

1978
01:24:38,149 --> 01:24:34,860
things through the night vision

1979
01:24:41,050 --> 01:24:38,159
binocular binoculars so I mean I'm using

1980
01:24:45,530 --> 01:24:41,060
that as a metaphor for saying that

1981
01:24:49,130 --> 01:24:45,540
perception human perception is altered

1982
01:24:52,310 --> 01:24:49,140
in many cases as a result or during UFO

1983
01:24:56,689 --> 01:24:52,320
interactions so maybe human perception

1984
01:25:00,110 --> 01:24:56,699
as it pertains to human consciousness is

1985
01:25:02,990 --> 01:25:00,120
um is one of the objectives where the

1986
01:25:05,570 --> 01:25:03,000
UFO phenomenon is somehow interacting

1987
01:25:07,310 --> 01:25:05,580
with human consciousness for a purpose I

1988
01:25:09,770 --> 01:25:07,320
don't know what that purposes a lot of

1989
01:25:12,130 --> 01:25:09,780
people they have UFO experiences and

1990
01:25:14,390 --> 01:25:12,140
then just to add to

1991
01:25:16,250 --> 01:25:14,400
how weird things are for them they start

1992
01:25:18,229 --> 01:25:16,260
seeing dead people you know that's

1993
01:25:20,209 --> 01:25:18,239
that's a very good point it's sort of uh

1994
01:25:21,830 --> 01:25:20,219
you know in your day job when we're not

1995
01:25:23,930 --> 01:25:21,840
really talking about your job now but

1996
01:25:25,729 --> 01:25:23,940
you work on Consciousness issues all the

1997
01:25:28,610 --> 01:25:25,739
time it goes right back to the beginning

1998
01:25:30,410 --> 01:25:28,620
of nids nids is remembered today as a

1999
01:25:34,070 --> 01:25:30,420
UFO organization but it wasn't there

2000
01:25:36,169 --> 01:25:34,080
were two main parts of nids one was are

2001
01:25:38,330 --> 01:25:36,179
we alone in the universe investigating

2002
01:25:41,090 --> 01:25:38,340
UFOs and related phenomena and the other

2003
01:25:43,130 --> 01:25:41,100
was does human consciousness survive

2004
01:25:45,350 --> 01:25:43,140
physical death do we go on is there a

2005
01:25:46,970 --> 01:25:45,360
soul something that goes on now it's

2006
01:25:49,430 --> 01:25:46,980
going to come full circle for you and

2007
01:25:53,450 --> 01:25:49,440
you're you're focusing more on the that

2008
01:25:55,970 --> 01:25:53,460
side survival of death do we go on

2009
01:25:58,430 --> 01:25:55,980
which is also form of Consciousness

2010
01:25:59,990 --> 01:25:58,440
studies and yeah it all all they're all

2011
01:26:01,970 --> 01:26:00,000
fits together it's interesting you know

2012
01:26:04,490 --> 01:26:01,980
I was out of confidence there recently

2013
01:26:06,470 --> 01:26:04,500
with uh Whitley streber and you know

2014
01:26:09,350 --> 01:26:06,480
Whitley Whitley strieber has told many

2015
01:26:12,350 --> 01:26:09,360
many people about this story was during

2016
01:26:14,530 --> 01:26:12,360
this very traumatic abduction event that

2017
01:26:18,050 --> 01:26:14,540
happened in the in the 1980s with them

2018
01:26:22,129 --> 01:26:18,060
during the abduction event he actually

2019
01:26:24,050 --> 01:26:22,139
saw a friend of his you know human

2020
01:26:26,330 --> 01:26:24,060
um in the middle of this abduction event

2021
01:26:30,229 --> 01:26:26,340
and he was thinking what is this guy

2022
01:26:32,649 --> 01:26:30,239
this guy was actually a CIA agent

2023
01:26:35,930 --> 01:26:32,659
um during the time that Whitley saw him

2024
01:26:39,169 --> 01:26:35,940
and Whitley couldn't understand why in

2025
01:26:41,510 --> 01:26:39,179
retrospect why this guy suddenly showed

2026
01:26:43,610 --> 01:26:41,520
up in the middle of a pretty traumatic

2027
01:26:46,370 --> 01:26:43,620
abduction phenomenon

2028
01:26:49,669 --> 01:26:46,380
Whitley followed it up after his

2029
01:26:52,129 --> 01:26:49,679
abduction had you know subsided uh in

2030
01:26:55,070 --> 01:26:52,139
the weeks afterwards and he discovered

2031
01:26:56,570 --> 01:26:55,080
that this guy had died unbeknownst to

2032
01:26:58,750 --> 01:26:56,580
him

2033
01:27:01,610 --> 01:26:58,760
um you know a couple of weeks before

2034
01:27:02,450 --> 01:27:01,620
Whitley's abduction and so this guy was

2035
01:27:04,490 --> 01:27:02,460
dead

2036
01:27:06,950 --> 01:27:04,500
when he showed up in in the middle of

2037
01:27:09,370 --> 01:27:06,960
Whitley's abduction so you know there's

2038
01:27:13,070 --> 01:27:09,380
numerous different

2039
01:27:16,430 --> 01:27:13,080
overlaps between what you know people

2040
01:27:19,250 --> 01:27:16,440
call the afterlife people

2041
01:27:21,649 --> 01:27:19,260
um you know part of The Hitchhiker

2042
01:27:23,270 --> 01:27:21,659
effect with with axelrod's family is

2043
01:27:26,390 --> 01:27:23,280
that one of his kids started seeing dead

2044
01:27:28,430 --> 01:27:26,400
people you know I mean suddenly your

2045
01:27:30,530 --> 01:27:28,440
perception is open and you can see dead

2046
01:27:33,350 --> 01:27:30,540
people whereas other people can't see

2047
01:27:36,709 --> 01:27:33,360
them so there is this kind of uh

2048
01:27:39,550 --> 01:27:36,719
mysterious overlap between

2049
01:27:42,530 --> 01:27:39,560
um human consciousness as it pertains to

2050
01:27:45,530 --> 01:27:42,540
survival after death

2051
01:27:48,530 --> 01:27:45,540
versus you know the close encounter

2052
01:27:51,229 --> 01:27:48,540
effect of of UFOs and that's that's a

2053
01:27:53,810 --> 01:27:51,239
phenomenon that people like Dr Jeffrey

2054
01:27:55,729 --> 01:27:53,820
and Rice University is very

2055
01:27:58,669 --> 01:27:55,739
interested in and there are other other

2056
01:28:01,189 --> 01:27:58,679
people who are starting to get involved

2057
01:28:03,350 --> 01:28:01,199
in that sort of concept that but it's

2058
01:28:06,709 --> 01:28:03,360
fundamentally about human consciousness

2059
01:28:09,110 --> 01:28:06,719
so yeah this is this is not

2060
01:28:11,270 --> 01:28:09,120
Stranger Than You Think This is Stranger

2061
01:28:13,970 --> 01:28:11,280
Than I can think I mean that's kind of

2062
01:28:15,709 --> 01:28:13,980
where I'm at look I it's so cool to hear

2063
01:28:17,990 --> 01:28:15,719
you guys you know kind of be able to

2064
01:28:20,209 --> 01:28:18,000
just freely and openly talk where it

2065
01:28:22,490 --> 01:28:20,219
doesn't feel so confined it's neat to be

2066
01:28:24,110 --> 01:28:22,500
able to be part of that and to allow

2067
01:28:26,149 --> 01:28:24,120
other people to

2068
01:28:27,770 --> 01:28:26,159
um just thank you so much for for coming

2069
01:28:29,990 --> 01:28:27,780
and talking with us and one last

2070
01:28:31,310 --> 01:28:30,000
question so we don't know who they are

2071
01:28:33,470 --> 01:28:31,320
where they're from

2072
01:28:35,870 --> 01:28:33,480
maybe they are from the place where we

2073
01:28:38,030 --> 01:28:35,880
go when we die whatever that is not not

2074
01:28:39,590 --> 01:28:38,040
from other planets although I guess they

2075
01:28:42,050 --> 01:28:39,600
had technology they could could be from

2076
01:28:43,970 --> 01:28:42,060
other planets but they live here in some

2077
01:28:45,590 --> 01:28:43,980
other kind of version of reality

2078
01:28:48,350 --> 01:28:45,600
and they're interested in what happens

2079
01:28:50,990 --> 01:28:48,360
to us when we go on

2080
01:28:51,729 --> 01:28:51,000
that's a possibility I mean

2081
01:28:54,649 --> 01:28:51,739
um

2082
01:28:56,510 --> 01:28:54,659
this whole sort of phenomena where UFOs

2083
01:28:58,310 --> 01:28:56,520
suddenly appear and then they can just

2084
01:29:01,070 --> 01:28:58,320
disappear

2085
01:29:02,930 --> 01:29:01,080
um where do they go when that happens uh

2086
01:29:06,470 --> 01:29:02,940
we know that there's literature

2087
01:29:10,310 --> 01:29:06,480
associated with the so-called afterlife

2088
01:29:12,410 --> 01:29:10,320
where people can see living people from

2089
01:29:14,750 --> 01:29:12,420
where they are but we can't see them so

2090
01:29:18,830 --> 01:29:14,760
there's a sort of a there's an overlap

2091
01:29:22,550 --> 01:29:18,840
between where is this place or is it a

2092
01:29:24,050 --> 01:29:22,560
state of mind where UFOs come from Colin

2093
01:29:26,209 --> 01:29:24,060
you've been at this a long time is it

2094
01:29:27,830 --> 01:29:26,219
solvable does it do you solve these

2095
01:29:29,689 --> 01:29:27,840
Mysteries do you get some answers while

2096
01:29:30,649 --> 01:29:29,699
you're still on this side of the Mortal

2097
01:29:33,530 --> 01:29:30,659
plane

2098
01:29:35,570 --> 01:29:33,540
I I think the more people that start

2099
01:29:37,610 --> 01:29:35,580
thinking about this and the more data

2100
01:29:39,649 --> 01:29:37,620
that's available I think the better the

2101
01:29:41,270 --> 01:29:39,659
chances are that we are capable of

2102
01:29:43,070 --> 01:29:41,280
solving this

2103
01:29:45,290 --> 01:29:43,080
I don't know the answer to that but I

2104
01:29:47,810 --> 01:29:45,300
think it's certainly fun trying before

2105
01:29:50,990 --> 01:29:47,820
we wrap it up

2106
01:29:52,490 --> 01:29:51,000
every day I see a snooze story about

2107
01:29:57,290 --> 01:29:52,500
atip

2108
01:29:58,669 --> 01:29:57,300
also at the same time and of course it

2109
01:30:01,010 --> 01:29:58,679
drives me a little bit crazy because I

2110
01:30:03,229 --> 01:30:01,020
mean we've we've told the story of the

2111
01:30:05,209 --> 01:30:03,239
22 million went to OSAP that program and

2112
01:30:07,850 --> 01:30:05,219
although atip was real it came afterward

2113
01:30:09,770 --> 01:30:07,860
it was a much smaller Focus the idea

2114
01:30:12,169 --> 01:30:09,780
that OSAP was somehow discredited

2115
01:30:13,669 --> 01:30:12,179
because it looked at the bigger picture

2116
01:30:17,629 --> 01:30:13,679
you need to look at the bigger picture

2117
01:30:21,050 --> 01:30:17,639
don't you yeah I I really I think the

2118
01:30:23,470 --> 01:30:21,060
main lesson learned from walking away

2119
01:30:26,750 --> 01:30:23,480
from allsop even though it was truncated

2120
01:30:28,189 --> 01:30:26,760
at two years instead of the projected

2121
01:30:32,570 --> 01:30:28,199
five years that it was originally

2122
01:30:36,110 --> 01:30:32,580
intended for was that if you can have

2123
01:30:38,750 --> 01:30:36,120
the the capability of studying both the

2124
01:30:41,870 --> 01:30:38,760
UFO as a technology study UFO

2125
01:30:45,350 --> 01:30:41,880
performance and also study effects of

2126
01:30:49,370 --> 01:30:45,360
UFO on humans I think that is the best

2127
01:30:51,290 --> 01:30:49,380
combination of a scientific program that

2128
01:30:54,350 --> 01:30:51,300
will yield results and if you can do

2129
01:30:58,629 --> 01:30:54,360
that relentlessly for five or ten years

2130
01:31:01,669 --> 01:30:58,639
as opposed to 18 months two years

2131
01:31:04,070 --> 01:31:01,679
you know I think that is the best chance

2132
01:31:06,830 --> 01:31:04,080
for going forward I think it there's a

2133
01:31:09,470 --> 01:31:06,840
possibility of getting getting real bona

2134
01:31:12,169 --> 01:31:09,480
fide results after five ten years this

2135
01:31:14,870 --> 01:31:12,179
is not a short-term program though you

2136
01:31:17,990 --> 01:31:14,880
know any hope of sort of having answers

2137
01:31:20,390 --> 01:31:18,000
after two years I think is an illusion

2138
01:31:22,850 --> 01:31:20,400
well look man there's only one direction

2139
01:31:24,229 --> 01:31:22,860
to move and that's forward so just

2140
01:31:26,090 --> 01:31:24,239
thanks for having the conversation with

2141
01:31:28,250 --> 01:31:26,100
us and man that was fun and we'll do it

2142
01:31:29,990 --> 01:31:28,260
again thank you very much it's been

2143
01:31:37,189 --> 01:31:30,000
really great spending time with both of

2144
01:31:37,199 --> 01:31:43,729
stupid

2145
01:31:51,649 --> 01:31:48,169
never have so few had so much to tell

2146
01:31:53,090 --> 01:31:51,659
but could say so little

2147
01:31:54,890 --> 01:31:53,100
following this little weaponized

2148
01:31:56,510 --> 01:31:54,900
presentation of Jeremy Corbell George

2149
01:31:58,669 --> 01:31:56,520
Knapp Dark Horse entertainment and

2150
01:32:00,890 --> 01:31:58,679
Cadence 13 Studios available now for